“I have had sex with X number of dudes” - doesn’t sound all that gender neutral.
Same with ‘guy’: “how many guys have you kissed” isn’t asking the same question as “how many people have you kissed.”
“How many dudes do you live with?” isn’t gender neutral, if you think it’s just an intimacy thing. How many dudes were at the party? It isn’t intimacy, intimacy is just an interesting way of making homophobic men confront the “dude isn’t gender neutral” argument though.
So, what’s actually happening in that 2nd panel? By all means, use dude how you like, just be honest about it.
I have, a couple of times, made men live their “dude is gender neutral” truth. Turns out telling people they are married to a dude, went to a party and kissed that dude one time, asking about their 2 dudes they have for parents, isn’t such a great time for them. Just be honest about it.
There’s also just the basic fucking courtesy of not using certain terms to describe someone if they ask you not to. If you address people of all genders as “dude” and a trans woman asks you not to refer to her that way, the correct response is “okay I’ll do my best not to refer to you with that term,” not “actually I use dude when referring to women sometimes so maybe you should just stop having a problem with it.”
That’s the thing really, I use “bro” gender neutrally all the time (though in a rare instance of treating transwomen differently I’ll avoid it if I know someone is transfem, because that’s just asking for misunderstandings). If anyone asked me to not refer to them that way I’ll just say oh ok sorry I won’t on the future, it’s gender neutral to me I didn’t mean to misgender you.
All of this, all the pronoun discussions, people insisting on deadnames, is the same as reading someones name on an ID, calling them that, and them telling you they don’t like that name and please use a different name (even when it’s just a nickname and nothing gender related). If you don’t accept their preference, you’re just an asshole. You don’t need to walk on eggshells, you just need to do a bare minimum of thinking and most importantly listen to people.
It’s embarrassingly simple to come up with post hoc arguments for why refering to women as dude is fine actually.
Much harder to introspect and determine where that behaviour stems from, then acknowledge the place it stems from is toxic, and start changing. Harder still to unlearn a habit I put 30+ years into learning.
He/him was used as a gender neutral term in instruction manuals. Do you believe he/him is a gender neutral term. In the right context is he/him is gender neutral?
If you read through the thread you’ll find a link to an article about he/him being used as gender neutral in certain contexts, and how we’ve learned since then.
When Dude is directed AT someone (“Hey, Dude!”), it’s definitely gender neutral. And when using it at the beginning of the sentence, it’s just an exclamation like Damn, Shit, or God (“Dude, that was crazy”).
But words change meaning slowly and its use in the way you describe is indeed still gendered. Guy is the same way albeit much further behind.
I stand by that dude is gender neutral if for no other reason than to reclaim it as such. It’s a great word that’s fun to say. So from one male dude to every non-male dude, get in on these fun linguistics! Dude is gender neutral if you say it is.
So from one male dude to every non-male dude, get in on these fun linguistics! Dude is gender neutral if you say it is.
I get what you’re trying to say, but you gotta realize that for people who do not want to be called “dude” because it does have certain gendered connotations, this doesn’t come across well.
You’re basically saying “I’ve already decided this term is gender neutral, and the only path forward is for you to get on board and accept my conclusion. I don’t see any reason to adjust my language and if you don’t want to be called dude that’s your problem.”
You can just not refer to people with terms they don’t want to be referred as, it’s pretty simple. You’re free to talk to people however you want, but ignoring or arguing with people’s requests for how to address them will only ever serve to alienate and isolate you from them.
I mean, if someone decides to start speaking my dialect and then telling me that even though I’ve been speaking it all my life and they only took a college community extension course in gender studies not even in linguistics, the definitions I use are incorrect and the definition they use is correct. Why would I deign to listen to them?
No worries, I also assumed the worst and that’s my bad. I’m just too used to seeing people whose default response to being challenged on their use of “dude” or “man” is to dig their heels in and argue about it.
I definitely don’t support saying something like “that’s a dude” when referring to a woman and won’t argue that it’s never offensive. I just think it’s a fun word non-males shouldn’t be denied.
Would you call a trans woman ‘dude’? It’s gender neutral after all.
I know it isn’t gender neutral, I’ve shown you why. You know it isn’t gender neutral, unless you just told everyone you’re happy to call trans women ‘dude’. Just be honest about it, what are you really doing when you call trans women ‘dude’?
I’m not sure it’s the men that get to reclaim gendered words, for the same reason I don’t think straight people could reclaim queer words, or white people could reclaim race related words. Can you see why?
Women I know? Yeah lol. I have and I will continue to with the ones I know. We all say dude. Trans or not. With strangers? Probably not unless I’m passing a blunt.
What am I doing when I call a trans woman ‘dude’? Usually including her in my inner circle because they know I’m not a chud.
I’m not reclaiming it. I’m encouraging non-males to use it because it’s fun. Definitions change with use. Tons of words used to be gendered and aren’t now. A famous example is “scientist”
With strangers? Probably not unless I’m passing a blunt.
Why not? Why the hesitancy?
I wouldn’t hesitate to call a trans person a person, stranger, friend, acquaintance, buddy, or any number of gender neutral terms. If they’re a trans man I wouldn’t hesitate to call them dude.
But you, you use dude, you profess to believe that it’s a gender neutral term. You wouldn’t use it for a trans woman without hesitation? That something to introspect over. Same as you could possibly introspect why you believe dude is a gendered term in all cases, but conveniently not this one. Use dude how you like, just be honest about it.
I’m not reclaiming it. I’m encouraging non-males to use it because it’s fun.
This you?
I stand by that dude is gender neutral if for no other reason than to reclaim it as such.
I’m not sure it’s for men to reclaim gendered words or encourage non-men to reclaim specific words for my own usage. For the same reason for the same reason I don’t think straight people should encourage queer folk to reclaim words to make me more comfortable about using them. Or non white folk should reclaim race words so I can use them. Can you see why?
Ya know, if I was introduced to someone who then responded “Hello, person” while reaching out to shake my hand, I’d question whether or not they were also a person. Substituting “person” where others would use “dude” is bizarre and comes across mechanical.
Sadly, they were just repeating the same old points. Weirdly, their justification for why it was fine to use dude in that context would make Sir a gender neutral term.
Like the other comment you replied to says: people will say the silliest things instead of introspect. It’s all post hoc- “I do this thing, what do I need to say I believe to make that ok.”
So i had fun repeating their ideas back at them, which is what I said I do in my original comment. Then people got upset at hearing their own ideas, like I said they do in my original comment.
Wait you believe dude is gender neutral? Your mum/wife/girlfriend/sister you think they’re all dudes? Weird. Wait you believe he/him is gender neutral because it’s used in that context? Weird. Wait, you believe Sir is gender neutral because it’s used in a specific case gender neutrally? Weird…
For example here’s a comment I received:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard “language changes over time and that’s sexist and toxic” from anyone other than Latin teachers with no students
There isn’t a point here beyond a misread. No, the fact that language changes doesn’t make it sexist and toxic. We used to use gendered terms for men for everyone: he/him in all the manuals. Why? Some people still use gendered terms for men for everyone: dude. Why? I suggest they’re for the same reason. But we can’t get to that step without first realising that dude is a gendered term.
Anyway, They just do this thing, so need to believe that language isn’t criticised in this way by anyone other than Latin teachers with no students. Despite a link to that thing happening in the very thread they’re replying to: the project to replace he/him I linked to. It’s just silliness so they don’t have to introspect. Funny though.
A small excerpt:
Today, we live in a very different world. In the intervening decades, society, and its language, has become more inclusive. The tone of TV comedies has changed, the percentage of women inventors worldwide (though still small) has more than doubled, the need for gender neutral, non-sexist language has been recognised. The time had come for our trusty MoPP, the essential ‘go to’ for every patent examiner, to change.
They’re all Latin teachers with no students, or of similar ilk to Latin teachers with no students? All of them? Every industry that changed their manuals from he/him to they/them? You really believe that? Weird.
Unfortunately, you think I’m right and that it is weird, but continue to include it as an option in your list. If someone told me what I was doing was weird, and I agreed with them, I wouldn’t keep it as an option and point out “yeah, but I know other less weird ones”. Just use the less weird ones.
That’s what you took from that? I provided a big list for various contexts and that’s what you focus on? Anyway:
“A dude cut in front of me in line” did you happen to note what you pictured when you thought of a dude cutting in front of you? Assuming you don’t have aphantasia.
“A person cut in front of me in line” both acceptable sentences in English.
A dude called me, a person called me. I met a dude the other day, I met a person the other day. I’d rather be in the forest with a bear than a person, I’d rather be in the forest with a bear than a dude.
Let’s do plurals: 3 people walked into a bar, 3 dudes walked into a bar (they said ‘ouch’).
If you think “person” is weird ommit it. It’s a distinction without difference as it’s lack doesn’t change my point in any way, shape, or form. This is what’s called pettifogging, when even if you’re right it doesn’t change a thing.
Your attempts to psychoanalyze me are falling flat when this is a conversation I’ve had dozens of times with both men and women. I’m an art school graduate who took a genders studies class that literally discussed the neutralization of vocatives like dude and man
You’re stuck on the idea that I go around calling everyone dude when I never said that. Are you going around saying “thanks, buddy” to every cashier? Didn’t think so.
Context, tone, and relationships matter. I’m pretty sure if I tripped and instinctually said “thanks dude” or “thanks man” when a trans woman helped me up, it’d be pretty obvious I’m not being a chud. If I said it with a scowl, that’d be a different story
I’m just applying your idea that ‘dude’ is gender neutral to the world we live in. It isn’t you agreed it isn’t, except in this one specific context.
Just like the ‘dude is gender neutral’ homophobic guys get upset when I ask how many dude they’ve had sex with, you’re doing the same thing. Sometimes it’s fun
I agreed it was malleable. You see how I mentioned us using he/him as a gender neutral term, and then stopped because it was obviously gendered? Dude is also obviously gendered.
Dude was originally an insult to men. Guess we can’t call men dudes anymore either, huh?
Ok? I’d like the etymology of dude though. What makes you think I’d go to bat for using the word dude? But men can reclaim words used to insult them if they want, I’ve been consistent on that.
But it’s fun to make people live/confront their ideas:
Dude is gender neutral. Your mum is a dude? Your wife? You don’t believe dude is gender neutral at all, you just don’t want to introspect about your usage of dude.
Dude is gender neutral because we used it as such. We used he/him as gender neutral you believe he/him is gender neutral? You don’t believe that he/him is gender neutral, you just don’t want to introspect about your usage of dude.
Yes. But it can be, and is used gender neutral. Words have multiple meanings all the time. Fuck is a great example. It has probably five or ten different uses.
He/him was used gender neutrally too in instruction manuals. That doesn’t mean he/him is a gender neutral term.
It doesn’t mean it’s right to use he/him as a gender neutral term. It doesn’t mean it’s right to refer to everyone as he/him. It means we’ve learned since then.
Just an example, do you now think he/him is a gender neutral term? By all means tell the world that you think he/him is a gender neutral term.
What’s easier to believe? He/him/dude are all gender neutral terms and your mum/wife/sister/best friend is a dude referred correctly to a he?
Or that they’re gendered terms used incorrectly as we historically have already done so.
I added a historical parallel “he/him” was claimed to be gender neutral. We’ve since learned. We can learn the lesson from the past and apply it forward, or not?
So I did add something, but the point is true, I can merely repeat it and add context.
“I have had sex with X number of dudes” - doesn’t sound all that gender neutral.
Same with ‘guy’: “how many guys have you kissed” isn’t asking the same question as “how many people have you kissed.”
“How many dudes do you live with?” isn’t gender neutral, if you think it’s just an intimacy thing. How many dudes were at the party? It isn’t intimacy, intimacy is just an interesting way of making homophobic men confront the “dude isn’t gender neutral” argument though.
So, what’s actually happening in that 2nd panel? By all means, use dude how you like, just be honest about it.
I have, a couple of times, made men live their “dude is gender neutral” truth. Turns out telling people they are married to a dude, went to a party and kissed that dude one time, asking about their 2 dudes they have for parents, isn’t such a great time for them. Just be honest about it.
There’s also just the basic fucking courtesy of not using certain terms to describe someone if they ask you not to. If you address people of all genders as “dude” and a trans woman asks you not to refer to her that way, the correct response is “okay I’ll do my best not to refer to you with that term,” not “actually I use dude when referring to women sometimes so maybe you should just stop having a problem with it.”
That’s the thing really, I use “bro” gender neutrally all the time (though in a rare instance of treating transwomen differently I’ll avoid it if I know someone is transfem, because that’s just asking for misunderstandings). If anyone asked me to not refer to them that way I’ll just say oh ok sorry I won’t on the future, it’s gender neutral to me I didn’t mean to misgender you.
All of this, all the pronoun discussions, people insisting on deadnames, is the same as reading someones name on an ID, calling them that, and them telling you they don’t like that name and please use a different name (even when it’s just a nickname and nothing gender related). If you don’t accept their preference, you’re just an asshole. You don’t need to walk on eggshells, you just need to do a bare minimum of thinking and most importantly listen to people.
It’s embarrassingly simple to come up with post hoc arguments for why refering to women as dude is fine actually.
Much harder to introspect and determine where that behaviour stems from, then acknowledge the place it stems from is toxic, and start changing. Harder still to unlearn a habit I put 30+ years into learning.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard “language changes over time and that’s sexist and toxic” from anyone other than Latin teachers with no students
You ever hear about nuance and context?
Yes.
He/him was used as a gender neutral term in instruction manuals. Do you believe he/him is a gender neutral term. In the right context is he/him is gender neutral?
If you read through the thread you’ll find a link to an article about he/him being used as gender neutral in certain contexts, and how we’ve learned since then.
He/Him is a pronoun. Dude isn’t.
Read through the thread.
Dun wanna.
That sounds like a ‘you’ thing. You do you.
“I’m a dude, he’s a dude, she’s a dude, we’re all dudes. Hey!” - “We’re all dudes” from Good Burger.
Do you love fucking dudes?
It’s lemmy so chances are what, 20% yes?
You think 80% of Lemmy’s users are asexual?
Or is there some more restrictive definition of “dudes” that you’re using?
When Dude is directed AT someone (“Hey, Dude!”), it’s definitely gender neutral. And when using it at the beginning of the sentence, it’s just an exclamation like Damn, Shit, or God (“Dude, that was crazy”).
But words change meaning slowly and its use in the way you describe is indeed still gendered. Guy is the same way albeit much further behind.
I stand by that dude is gender neutral if for no other reason than to reclaim it as such. It’s a great word that’s fun to say. So from one male dude to every non-male dude, get in on these fun linguistics! Dude is gender neutral if you say it is.
I get what you’re trying to say, but you gotta realize that for people who do not want to be called “dude” because it does have certain gendered connotations, this doesn’t come across well.
You’re basically saying “I’ve already decided this term is gender neutral, and the only path forward is for you to get on board and accept my conclusion. I don’t see any reason to adjust my language and if you don’t want to be called dude that’s your problem.”
You can just not refer to people with terms they don’t want to be referred as, it’s pretty simple. You’re free to talk to people however you want, but ignoring or arguing with people’s requests for how to address them will only ever serve to alienate and isolate you from them.
I mean, if someone decides to start speaking my dialect and then telling me that even though I’ve been speaking it all my life and they only took a college community extension course in gender studies not even in linguistics, the definitions I use are incorrect and the definition they use is correct. Why would I deign to listen to them?
I felt I was pretty careful in my wording but I guess not.
I don’t go around referring to everyone as dude, I said I promote the idea that dude is gender neutral to everyone because it’s a fun word.
No worries, I also assumed the worst and that’s my bad. I’m just too used to seeing people whose default response to being challenged on their use of “dude” or “man” is to dig their heels in and argue about it.
I definitely don’t support saying something like “that’s a dude” when referring to a woman and won’t argue that it’s never offensive. I just think it’s a fun word non-males shouldn’t be denied.
Would you call a trans woman ‘dude’? It’s gender neutral after all.
I know it isn’t gender neutral, I’ve shown you why. You know it isn’t gender neutral, unless you just told everyone you’re happy to call trans women ‘dude’. Just be honest about it, what are you really doing when you call trans women ‘dude’?
I’m not sure it’s the men that get to reclaim gendered words, for the same reason I don’t think straight people could reclaim queer words, or white people could reclaim race related words. Can you see why?
Women I know? Yeah lol. I have and I will continue to with the ones I know. We all say dude. Trans or not. With strangers? Probably not unless I’m passing a blunt.
What am I doing when I call a trans woman ‘dude’? Usually including her in my inner circle because they know I’m not a chud.
I’m not reclaiming it. I’m encouraging non-males to use it because it’s fun. Definitions change with use. Tons of words used to be gendered and aren’t now. A famous example is “scientist”
Why not? Why the hesitancy?
I wouldn’t hesitate to call a trans person a person, stranger, friend, acquaintance, buddy, or any number of gender neutral terms. If they’re a trans man I wouldn’t hesitate to call them dude.
But you, you use dude, you profess to believe that it’s a gender neutral term. You wouldn’t use it for a trans woman without hesitation? That something to introspect over. Same as you could possibly introspect why you believe dude is a gendered term in all cases, but conveniently not this one. Use dude how you like, just be honest about it.
This you?
I’m not sure it’s for men to reclaim gendered words or encourage non-men to reclaim specific words for my own usage. For the same reason for the same reason I don’t think straight people should encourage queer folk to reclaim words to make me more comfortable about using them. Or non white folk should reclaim race words so I can use them. Can you see why?
Ya know, if I was introduced to someone who then responded “Hello, person” while reaching out to shake my hand, I’d question whether or not they were also a person. Substituting “person” where others would use “dude” is bizarre and comes across mechanical.
Me:
You’re right, fortunately I provided a bunch of options for any number of contexts and even left room for more.
Wow that was you? Thanks Mr language man
It was a weird bit of pettifogging.
Sadly, they were just repeating the same old points. Weirdly, their justification for why it was fine to use dude in that context would make Sir a gender neutral term.
Like the other comment you replied to says: people will say the silliest things instead of introspect. It’s all post hoc- “I do this thing, what do I need to say I believe to make that ok.”
So i had fun repeating their ideas back at them, which is what I said I do in my original comment. Then people got upset at hearing their own ideas, like I said they do in my original comment.
Wait you believe dude is gender neutral? Your mum/wife/girlfriend/sister you think they’re all dudes? Weird. Wait you believe he/him is gender neutral because it’s used in that context? Weird. Wait, you believe Sir is gender neutral because it’s used in a specific case gender neutrally? Weird…
For example here’s a comment I received:
There isn’t a point here beyond a misread. No, the fact that language changes doesn’t make it sexist and toxic. We used to use gendered terms for men for everyone: he/him in all the manuals. Why? Some people still use gendered terms for men for everyone: dude. Why? I suggest they’re for the same reason. But we can’t get to that step without first realising that dude is a gendered term.
Anyway, They just do this thing, so need to believe that language isn’t criticised in this way by anyone other than Latin teachers with no students. Despite a link to that thing happening in the very thread they’re replying to: the project to replace he/him I linked to. It’s just silliness so they don’t have to introspect. Funny though.
A small excerpt:
Just one example, there’s plenty of others
They’re all Latin teachers with no students, or of similar ilk to Latin teachers with no students? All of them? Every industry that changed their manuals from he/him to they/them? You really believe that? Weird.
Unfortunately, you think I’m right and that it is weird, but continue to include it as an option in your list. If someone told me what I was doing was weird, and I agreed with them, I wouldn’t keep it as an option and point out “yeah, but I know other less weird ones”. Just use the less weird ones.
That’s what you took from that? I provided a big list for various contexts and that’s what you focus on? Anyway:
“A dude cut in front of me in line” did you happen to note what you pictured when you thought of a dude cutting in front of you? Assuming you don’t have aphantasia.
“A person cut in front of me in line” both acceptable sentences in English.
A dude called me, a person called me. I met a dude the other day, I met a person the other day. I’d rather be in the forest with a bear than a person, I’d rather be in the forest with a bear than a dude.
Let’s do plurals: 3 people walked into a bar, 3 dudes walked into a bar (they said ‘ouch’).
If you think “person” is weird ommit it. It’s a distinction without difference as it’s lack doesn’t change my point in any way, shape, or form. This is what’s called pettifogging, when even if you’re right it doesn’t change a thing.
Your attempts to psychoanalyze me are falling flat when this is a conversation I’ve had dozens of times with both men and women. I’m an art school graduate who took a genders studies class that literally discussed the neutralization of vocatives like dude and man
You’re stuck on the idea that I go around calling everyone dude when I never said that. Are you going around saying “thanks, buddy” to every cashier? Didn’t think so.
Context, tone, and relationships matter. I’m pretty sure if I tripped and instinctually said “thanks dude” or “thanks man” when a trans woman helped me up, it’d be pretty obvious I’m not being a chud. If I said it with a scowl, that’d be a different story
I’m just applying your idea that ‘dude’ is gender neutral to the world we live in. It isn’t you agreed it isn’t, except in this one specific context.
Just like the ‘dude is gender neutral’ homophobic guys get upset when I ask how many dude they’ve had sex with, you’re doing the same thing. Sometimes it’s fun
You’re being weird about what was intended to be an uplifting comment about the malleability of language.
Dude was originally an insult to men. Guess we can’t call men dudes anymore either, huh?
I agreed it was malleable. You see how I mentioned us using he/him as a gender neutral term, and then stopped because it was obviously gendered? Dude is also obviously gendered.
Ok? I’d like the etymology of dude though. What makes you think I’d go to bat for using the word dude? But men can reclaim words used to insult them if they want, I’ve been consistent on that.
Please, I am begging you to touch grass
calm down
Probably a good idea.
But it’s fun to make people live/confront their ideas: Dude is gender neutral. Your mum is a dude? Your wife? You don’t believe dude is gender neutral at all, you just don’t want to introspect about your usage of dude.
Dude is gender neutral because we used it as such. We used he/him as gender neutral you believe he/him is gender neutral? You don’t believe that he/him is gender neutral, you just don’t want to introspect about your usage of dude.
Not you specifically, just examples.
Yes. But it can be, and is used gender neutral. Words have multiple meanings all the time. Fuck is a great example. It has probably five or ten different uses.
Niether of you are wrong
He/him was used gender neutrally too in instruction manuals. That doesn’t mean he/him is a gender neutral term.
It doesn’t mean it’s right to use he/him as a gender neutral term. It doesn’t mean it’s right to refer to everyone as he/him. It means we’ve learned since then.
Just an example, do you now think he/him is a gender neutral term? By all means tell the world that you think he/him is a gender neutral term.
What’s easier to believe? He/him/dude are all gender neutral terms and your mum/wife/sister/best friend is a dude referred correctly to a he?
Or that they’re gendered terms used incorrectly as we historically have already done so.
Yes we got your point. Are you going to add anything or just repeat yourself?
I added a historical parallel “he/him” was claimed to be gender neutral. We’ve since learned. We can learn the lesson from the past and apply it forward, or not?
So I did add something, but the point is true, I can merely repeat it and add context.