This is so funny I will forgive the spelling mistake. :)
Yeah man shoot against tankies while your country is ruled by zionist pedophile warmongers.
Tankies just want to replace them with other pediphile warmongers
And here I thought the Soviets executed Beria 🤔
I feel like a massive portion of people are missing the point of this post and jump to the conclusion that OP is some Zionist uncle Sam loving conservative that hates anything slightly left of centre.
That is EXACTLY the conclusion I jumped to!
That’s uncanny bro.
Nah, they didn’t miss the point at all, they’re just intentionally acting in bad faith.
Nah, your just missing the point that being able to say “America is somewhat bad” makes up for fully supporting all of the US’s foreign policy positions. There must be genocide in Xinjiang because the fascist evangelical German that wrote a book about how cool the apocalypse will be because you get to watch all the Jews burn in a lake of fire said that it is a genocide. It is only half of why you have to hate the ICC because they err the other way by saying that Israel is committing genocide. So they are silent on the Chinese genocide while being wrong about the Palestinian “genocide”.
Or maybe it’s okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
America has committed a LOT of atrocities. Trail of Tears. Pine Ridge. Slavery for god’s sake. Fuck, we invaded the wrong country after 9/11 and let Saudi get away with sponsoring it. Then we have the Monroe Doctrine and South America plus all the Middle Eastern governments that we overthrew. The nuking of Japan was the decision to save millions of soldiers at the expense of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Fewer lives, yes, but it’s rather difficult to justify the murder of the innocent. We’re propping up Israel and allowing them to commit atrocities against the Palestinians. At this point, the US and Israel are the only real parties in the way of a two-state solution. Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side (or the enemy of their enemies) and that’s the problem OP is bringing up. If that doesn’t describe you, then great, I’m not talking about you. There’s no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
Or maybe it’s okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
Too bad that every time people say they do this against tankies, it turns out to just be regurgitation of propaganda of the genocidaires of Palestine, and tankies keep being proven to be correct.
Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
“The resistance to nazi Germany could easily be taken care of without the killing of the Jewish and Slavic people, who just want to be safe and secure”.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side
Except we do. This includes both the people you would meet online, as well as people who have actually been in positions of power (case in point - Castro’s handling of LGBT rights).
If that doesn’t describe you, then great, I’m not talking about you.
Does it describe anybody? Can you point to any such cases?
There’s no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
This is only true if you think that the rest of the world has no right to defend itself against the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) when the latter starts amassing troops on said state’s border after having been pushing for war for at least years.
Furthermore, Ukraine has been targeting civilians and nuclear power plants, as well as brazenly committing war crimes like the operation SpiderWeb where they use (probably unwitting) civilians to carry out military action.
Furthermore, the post-coup government of Ukraine is awful for reasons such as being filled with open nazis, worshipping the nazis that carried out the genocides in WW2, selling off Ukraine’s resources to NATO’s oligarchs, etc.The only sort of argument in favour of supporting Ukraine that people seem to give is that Russia put troops in Ukraine first, instead of waiting for NATO to do the inverse.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on that state’s border, or otherwise in position to strike (like in the case of Iran)?
No, it is not the unwillingness to call out infractions. It is more the extreme disproportionality of liberals. The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn’t currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed and being too left or wanting to overthrow the government is too far. We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
But that is actually the real issue that Liberals take issue with. Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US’s wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn’t currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don’t believe it’s “such a historical evil” nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren’t fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I’d have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn’t I?
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed
Did you not read what I wrote above or…?
wanting to overthrow the government is too far.
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They’re usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They’re often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can’t imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There’s a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we’d be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that… How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don’t you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you’re willing to take up arms when you can’t even knock on your neighbor’s door?
Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US’s wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren’t much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
I am impressed by everyone’s endurance in this thread. This is good stuff. I don’t think anyone has even called anyone names yet. I am very happy about this outcome. Upvotes for everyone!
What is even happening in this thread…
Is there a cliffs notes for this shit? Who did what to whom now? I am completely lost.
That’s why I vote Trump. Third time’s the charm!
TLDR: One side is saying it’s okay to point out the flaws of your side and the skeletons in your countries closet and point out how Tankies will support any side against the US without acknowledging how that side also has similar skeletons (in some cases worse).
The other side is saying that tankies are not like that and any statement saying such is propaganda.
Imperlialism!
Imperlialism Jam
too far fetched?
The military bases doing the imperialism are named after those guys and what the Confederacy wanted to do if they won the war was take over Cuba and Venezuela and rename the Gulf of Mexico the American Sea. America is what happens when you aren’t a tankie and quit Reconstruction.
yellow Michael Parenti about critical support:
And those who demand instant perfection, the day after the revolution, they get up and say “Are there civil liberties for the fascists? Are they going to be allowed to have their newspapers, and their radio programme? Are they going to be able to keep all their farms?” The passion that some of our liberals feel the day after the revolution, the passion and concern they feel for the fascists—the civil rights and civil liberties of those fascists who were dumping and destroying and murdering people before—now the revolution has got to be perfect! It’s got to be flawless! Well, that isn’t my criteria! My criteria is, what happens to those people who couldn’t read? What happens to those babies who couldn’t eat—that died of hunger? And there, that’s why I support revolution. The revolution that feeds the children gets my support! Not blindly, not unqualified. And the Reaganite government that tries to stop that kind of process, that tries to keep those people in poverty and illiteracy and hunger—that gets my undiluted animosity and opposition.
*imperlialism
Karl Marx was alive during the civil war. We know what he and his fellow communists thought about it. In fact, some of his fellow Communists were Forty-Eighters: German Radicals who were exiled after the failed revolutions of 1848, many of whom fought in the civil war.
One of them was August Willich, an ardent Communist who thought Marx of all people was too conservative. A “Tankie” of his day.
The German Communists, like Willich, who fought in the American Civil War believed that the war against slavery, and in the side of the Union, was a Social Revolution against the reactionary landed gentry of the south.
Many Forty-Eighters settled in Southwest, Ohio. If you go to the rapidly gentrifying Cincinnati neighborhood of Over The Rhine, it’s called that because it was originally made up of forty-eighter German immigrants, who became active participants in the underground railroad, and helped set up social programs to educate freed slaves, and provide them with housing and such.
So the only person lacking critical thinking here is you OP. You’ve made up a guy in your head, to get mad at.
lol, modern tankies have nothing to do with Marx.
Oh friend, you have this wrong, I agree 100%, sorry for not spelling it out! This meme is about the blind modern day teamist support for any “anti-west” regime, no matter how vile.
Don’t talk down to me. You made up a guy to get mad at. There is no human being on earth who holds the position you claim “Tankies” hold.
Delete this post.
Delete this post.
Nah, this meme is about the Russia-supporting dorks we see so much of. You don’t want to see more jokes about losers who twist themselves into intellectually and morally bankrupt shapes to defend authoritarianism, block button’s right there, because I’m gonna keep clowning on em :)
Why can’t you explain what you think Russia should have done in response to NATO’s actions?
Funny thing, if Russia had just done nothing, they would be better off in every conceivable metric.
Better how?
NATO has been (self-admittedly) pushing for the war with Russia for years. Doing nothing would just mean that the most prolific invader in the world would have more of an ability to hurt Russia (and Palestine, by the way, considering that the war with Russia has been siphoning some of NATO’s resources).Also, consider that your suggestion didn’t work for, for example, Iran. Iran did nothing, and yet, you empire still attacked it.
Sooo stupid, Russia wouldn’t have been a target, they possess too many nuclear weapons to risk having war with them (directly). You’re being propagandized… Russian trolls are going brrr right now to destabilise the world sadly, result: more fascistic tendencies (further fuelled by capitalism…)
NATO has been (self-admittedly) pushing for the war with Russia for years.
No, they haven’t.
Also, consider that your suggestion didn’t work for, for example, Iran. Iran did nothing, and yet, you empire still attacked it.
Russia has nukes. Iran doesn’t.
Better how?
They would be at peace, and the myth of their military might would still be unbroken.
Eh lol maybe just end this stupid war! Where they are the unquestionable aggressor of…
This war is so stupid on many levels… But Puttler cannot back down anymore without loosing his face, kinda sad situation…
Eh lol maybe just end this stupid war!
It did try to negotiate peace, but the European powers that are the masters of Ukraine right now do not understand that language, it seems.
Where they are the unquestionable aggressor of…
So, you are saying that NATO pushing for war with Russia, carrying out a coup in Ukraine, breaking promises to not expand towards Russia, and generally being the most prolific invader in the world is not aggression? Haha.
So, what should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on that state’s borders (or otherwise in position, like in the case of Iran), especially after a coup against a neighbouring state?
Lol peace could be established tomorrow when they back out of their invasion.
I hate USA’s world policing as well and their imperalism, but this conflict would not exist, when Putler didn’t get love fantasies of Hitler… You can try to turn it as much as you like, russia is the aggressor, they didn’t had to invade (the krim in the first palce btw.).
You’re not clowning, you’re trolling and spreading lies and misinformation about people and disrupting discourse.
Huh maybe that is what it is. As a liberal in recent years the outlets for hate have become increasingly policed. You can’t make jokes about LGBTQ or disabled or women or even religious people any more. But you people still feel that hate, that strong desire to hate on people, but now it needs new outlets since the familiar ones are policed. So your “clowning” needs new targets, any target really. I think I’m onto something here.
It’s like you people need to shit badly, and are running down the street and looking for any excuse to find someone “vile” to shit on. You just can’t function differently. So to you the need to shit is just so much more important than arguing based on logic or truth or facts or being polite to people who think differently. It’s just that everything turns into shit in your head and your mouth is like an asshole with verbal diarrhea.
Thank you so much you helped me tremendously to understand people with your kind of problem.
What I find so sad about you tankies is how you just put everything in categories, like “those evil liberals” (sure the propaganda in the USA is also plain stupid, like communism used as some term of scaring someone etc.)
That the world is more complex, and authoritarian means are not the solution to establish healthy socialism long term… Russia or Puttler is purely destructive on basically all scales (now unquestionably joined by USA with their entirely idiotic leader)
you tankies is how you just put everything in categories, like “those evil liberals”
Russia or Puttler is purely destructive on basically all scales
OP: “Tankies be like supporting slave holders”
Is there like a single introspective thought rattling in your brain? Or still constipated?
Right. A false appeal to my mental health. That’s not ableist at all.
We met different people then
Can you link to a post or comment from a communist who supports the confederates?
Do you think i save a link for every thing i see and interact with online?
What you’re talking about is pretty remarkable, sorry for asking for evidence.
So you’re a liar, Gotcha.
So why are you listening unquestioningly to team pedophile and team genocide?
Try getting your head out of your ass for once.
What? Ukraine? What are you talking about?
You know the same people that support pedophilia and genocide and manufacturing your news. They define what you see as “vile” and why we “vileness supporters” must be demonized and trolled. For purity of thought and spirit. For the liberal world order which preaches that we should accept different people, different cultures, different viewpoints. Except the vile ones of course, the impure ones. The many Hitlers of this world. As dictated by your masters who practice pedophilia and genocide.
It’s not going to get much clearer than that. Because the sickness in your heads just doesn’t make much sense. That’s what you allowed yourself to become.
What conclusion am I supposed to draw from this? Am I supposed to now be sympathetic to Russia because of the issues with corporate American media? You are making wild assumptions of where I get my information from and what my views are.
I have disdain for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine just as I have disdain for Israel’s treatment of Palestine and the United States’ enablement of this.
Maybe you didn’t realize this, but the very same people withholding the full release of the Epstein files and allowing so many to skirt accountability for their horrible crimes are not exactly friendly to Ukraine.
No amount of bloviating about how supposedly unfairly the media treats figures like Putin and Trump is going to get me to support their expansionistic endeavors and immoral wars.
These vile, expansionistic behaviors are not simply different people with different viewpoints. The purveyors of these actions and their supporters are owed no tolerance.
I have disdain for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine just as I have disdain for Israel’s treatment of Palestine and the United States’ enablement of this.
No you do not. You’re lying.
You clearly support coups and interventions in sovereign nations to overthrow their democratic government. Even Ukrainian courts have ruled that the Euromaidan massacre was perpetrated by far right (swoboda / nazi) elements. It’s all documented and historical facts.
And you cannot know the historical facts and then deny that you are on team pedophilia. Because you’re repeating all the talking points of the fascist pedophile team. From Bush in 2008 to Obama to Trump and Biden, the US strategy was long set for Ukraine and Georgia. You just choose not to listen to facts or do the work yourself of looking them up and instead repeat the hegemonic talking points.
That’s you! A goon who does not care when a nation is manipulated, democratic governments are toppled and people massacred! You say you don’t support imperialism but that is what you’re doing right here! By denying simple historical facts!
And you call us “vile” lol. And you know what is funny? We don’t even really support Russia! It’s more like a default opposition to you because of your lies and hate and aggression and bloodlust and warmongering. In your arrogance you want to expand your “liberal world order” all around the world. I oppose that, but I don’t support Putin.
You however are team pedophile and team genocide.
If you have to assert that you know my position better than I do, you’re losing the argument.
It’s honestly really messed up of you to say that those who disagree with you are on “team pedophile.”
Me expressing that I have disdain both for what Israel and the US are doing with Palestine and what Russia is doing with Ukraine shouldn’t be controversial. It shouldn’t be getting you this worked up.
I will not be engaging with any of your inane, unsourced ramblings because you are not engaging in this conversation with respect and a genuine desire to understand. Your staggering arrogance prevents you from genuinely comprehending my position since you’re clearly more interested claiming that I’m somehow lying about my genuine views.
Nothing that you wrote accurately describes my viewpoints. It’s pathetic that you have to craft a fiction about my views in order to feel better about yourself.
It’s pretty clear that people are not being unfair to you in other interactions. You lead with being antagonistic and insulting and profoundly fail to genuinely engage with the conversation. Instead, you craft a fiction of what you wish my views are so you can tear that down instead. You demonstrate a profound lack of social skills and emotional intelligence.
Do better, and for your own sake, I sure hope you don’t go accusing people of being on “team pedophile” in person. It won’t go well for you.
Y’all really can’t help yourselves but to come into every anti-tankie post in the fediverse to call the OP stupid, huh?
to call the OP stupid
When you make stupid posts, people are gonna think you’re fucking stupid
There’s folk who can’t help but make anti-tankie posts in the fediverse, which specifically and directly are requests for that kind of responsive content.
It could also be them making fun of you for having a goofy and ignorant worldview, in which case constantly swarming the comments with r/atheism style pseudo-intellectual groupthink is… a choice
I am not OP but a Black anarchist vanguard.
I wouldn’t mention the latter occasionally because you’re still using lemmy, so you can’t see my «Politics» label.
I sat down to review all your historical assertions without a single citation. Meaning, I won’t cite back if you don’t.
Are there Achtundvierziger today, or similar vanguard parties?
Godric maybe projecting the trends a sees from camp threadiverse comments & posts, but do we even have a contemporary vanguard party doing praxis? PSL legitimately doesn’t count, so if you bring them as an example, we have nothing further to discuss. You can also work with Godric to end campist rhetorizing moving forward. Whenever you both see campism, hold them accountable. I believe all of us🧵 want to end campism. I in particularly want to see Dengism邓理论 gone forever.
Be aware that I use this instance exactly because I have given up on 习
. So honestly don’t bring it up.I am open for anything else.
Any additional questions?
Yeah, what in the ever living fuck are you talking about? This AI listicle-ass comment is genuinely illegible to me. I don’t understand what you’re trying to say
You’ve never seen an ordered list?
Want me to essay it?
I totally skimmed what you had written as it was pretty inchoherent. If your politics have become so esoteric that Lemmy users can’t parse them, that’s a ‘you’ problem and you might want to examine it.
Like, the barrier to entry of Lemmy filters users here such that: most people here tend to have above average intelligence and reading comprehension.
So, you’re either posting AI crap, or have gotten so twisted on some kind of propaganda that you can’t meaningfully comminciate with others. If you’re actually human you shoild probably unplug from your political ideology source and talk to an old wise hippy or something.
The ordered list in that comment serves no purpose, as the items are not even properly grouped. It just hurts readability.
They are grouped by topics 1 respondent, 2 politics, 3 literacy confirmation, 4 thesis, 5 warning, 6 intersection check, 7 commentary, 8 openness to dialogue
So, at the very least:
- 1 and 2 pertain to the same topic. 2 even continues the same sentence.
- 4 and 5 should be grouped together, as 5 refers to 4.
- 6 and 7 should be grouped together. In part because they both are just regurgitation of propaganda made by y the same people that sold you on Nayirah’s testimony, Iraq WMDs and the like. (Also, have to chuckle at the “campism” but when you very openly engage in pro-NATO campism.)
- Just using standard paragraphs and not an ordered list would be more readable, since you are not enumerating anything, nor is there a good case for referring to each of these items by the numbers outside of the conversation about how useless the ordered list is here.
1 differentiates from op, 2 outlines my politics which may also differ from op. Continued sentences is something everyone does, no?
I can def. combine4&5, but will SpookyBogMonster keep quiet about point 4 if 5 is the only choice?
6&7 need to be separated, as 6 is my intersection for Godric’s plea to end campist rhetorics, not my personal antidengist praxis.
you very openly engage in pro-NATO campism
whence?
nor is there a good case for referring to each of these items by the numbers outside of the conversation
brevity, citation, referencing, value, formatting, etc…
I’ll edit an essay format you then.
A lot of people in the west think that Communists/Socialists are all leftwing, when there’s plenty of conservative traditionalist Communists.
There just more modern and outside the us, in places like China, Africa, Asia, and South America.
hahaha, HaHaHa, HAHAHA! The origin story for both the original Hexbear and Lemmygrad community is being banned from reddit for “promoting political violence” for John Brown memes and saying Sherman’s march to the sea was good. Perfect case of projection.
More like 19th century liberals: “We have to find a proper compromise with the slavers. I hate all of these tankie
RussianUnion bots saying this is about slavery. We all know this is about states rights and freedom!”Hey buddy, this isn’t reddit, we can mention how John Brown is objectively a Saint in any religion that may exist!
This meme is about modern morons who defend anything “anti-west”!
What “anti-west” positions do you think are bad?
The Russian invasion of Ukraine is bad, for example. The Genocide against the Uyghurs (https://xinjiang.amnesty.org/).
The Russian invasion of Ukraine is bad, for example.
What should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) starts amassing troops and weapons on its borders (or otherwise in position to attack, like with Iran), especially after a coup against a neighbouring state?
The Genocide against the Uyghurs
The one that hasn’t been substantiated, one which the NATO-dominated UN concluded to there being no evidence for, one which your masters have long since stopped pretending to believe to have happened?
And no, Adrian Zenz’ word is not proof.
Oh, hey, it’s the same people that sold you on Nayirah’s testimony. Do you believe that one, as well, since Amnesty said it was true?
What should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) starts amassing troops and weapons on its borders (or otherwise in position to attack, like with Iran), especially after a coup against a neighbouring state?
Maybe not invade a neighboring country yourself, and then keep investing material and manpower after the invasion has stalled for no discernible gain.
The one that hasn’t been substantiated, one which the NATO-dominated UN concluded to there being no evidence for, one which your masters have long since stopped pretending to believe to have happened?
What the UN conclude was that while there are reeducation camps and systemic discrimination, there is not sufficient evidence to say its a genocide. Which is like “We can prove that A killed B, but we can’t prove that it’s murder”.
And no, Adrian Zenz’ word is not proof.
Funnily enough, it’s only ever the deniers who bring up this guy.
Oh, hey, it’s the same people that sold you on Nayirah’s testimony. Do you believe that one, as well, since Amnesty said it was true?
That’s a quite deliberate misconstruction of the facts. Amnesty International initially promoted the story, then they issued a retraction once they found that it lacked supporting evidence. There’s no evidence of malpractice on their part.
Maybe not invade a neighboring country yourself, and then keep investing material and manpower after the invasion has stalled for no discernible gain.
You said what they supposedly shouldn’t do (which would mean that Iran shouldn’t have struck NATO puppets in its vicinity that house NATO bases and equipment, by the way). You did not say what they should do.
Also the implication that Russia is supposedly not winning when it has been advancing is rather silly.
What the UN conclude was that while there are reeducation camps and systemic discrimination, there is not sufficient evidence to say its a genocide. Which is like “We can prove that A killed B, but we can’t prove that it’s murder”.
Haha. What you are saying is actually “I can’t prove that A killed B, but A definitely murdered B!”.
Do you even know what a genocide is?Funnily enough, it’s only ever the deniers who bring up this guy.
So far, the only source the proponents bring.
That’s a quite deliberate misconstruction of the facts. Amnesty International initially promoted the story
“You are wrong to say that Amnesty promoted the atrocity propaganda. Amnesty did promote the atrocity propaganda…”
Also,
There’s no evidence of malpractice on their part.
Amnesty International promoted the story
You did not say what they should do.
Doing nothing would have worked out much better for them.
Also the implication that Russia is supposedly not winning when it has been advancing is rather silly.
Thing being, Russia hasn’t been advancing.
Haha. What you are saying is actually “I can’t prove that A killed B, but A definitely murdered B!”. Do you even know what a genocide is?
Maybe re-read my post. That being said, genocide is a deliberate effort to destroy a national, racial, cultural or ethnic group entirely or in part. The crimes against humanity committed by the Chinese government against the Uyghurs constitute such an effort. The UN might disagree, because they are slaves to capital, and capital would like to keep trading with China.
So far, the only source the proponents bring.
It’s not.
Malpractice would be if Amnesty International had kept promoting the testimony after evidence had failed to come to light. You’d have to show that they acted maliciously and/or recklessly, which they didn’t.
Also, your argument for why Amnesty shouldn’t be trusted is because they fell for a fabricated testimony 35 years ago. If that’s all you have, then it’s actually a glowing endorsement of them.
So are Hexbear and Lemmygrad not tankies? What tankies are you talking about that advocates for bad positions and are opposed to Hexbear and Lemmygrad or any other left instance on the Fediverse?
Liberal zionist hasbara being like “opposition to Epstein Fury is only for tankie anti-west morons”.
If you look hard enough around Caleb Maupin/patsoc circles, you might find examples of that.
What liberals think tankies think:
The Confederacy fought the US, so that means I like them
What tankies actually think:
The US is the Confederacy and that’s why I hate it
Johnson was able to reintegrate the planters into the political establishment. Unfortunately, John Wilkes Booth won.
ya that Neo Slavery video by knowing better helped to open my eyes as to just how badly the americans luuuived slavery and racism truthfully. Same tjing with ‘Some More News’ video about ‘Systematic Racism Doesnt Exist’
Very few textbooks cover this topic of what happened to Black and Indigenois people from 1867-1968 and even after that.
The OP is definitely sarcastic. It’s very clearly mocking people who simp for countries like Russia simply because of their adversarial relationship with the United States. I have never once seen a liberal sincerely assert that tankies like The Confederacy.
What tankies actually think:
Wait, why the fuck should anyone care what tankies think?
OBVIOUSLY we should care because it’s the internet and loud minorities dominate here, skewing our perception of reality and what political opinions are worth debating today, despite being fringe and unfeasible IRL /s
It’s consistent. Their goal isn’t to uplift the West to leftist values, it’s to destroy the West for the sake of Chinese or Russian realpolitik or just plain anti-colonial revenge. A deeply Balkanized US that kills itself and diminishes its own power is one of the best things they could hope for.
A balkanized US is the best thing I could ask for too and I hate tankies
Every large country should be balkanized.
I’d say the opposite.
Countries should be deeply tied together, both internally and externally.
Isolation and little fiefdoms are what the right wing monsters want. Little kingdoms where accountability is optional.
They can be tied together voluntarily under a system that isn’t the autocratic nation state.
Look at the world today. The biggest countries are all the worst exporters of right-wing autocracy. So I think your analysis is very backwards.
The largest countries who all stand alone and refuse to truly tie themselves to the international community.
I think you’ve missed the point.
Large nations can only maintain themselves through oppression. The dynamic of voluntary association with other nations is very different from that. Unity can be good or bad. It depends on the context.
Germany is arguably the heart of the EU and also has arguably the most concerningly powerful far right wing in the EU.
And all of the economic suffering for the lower classes which will happen if balkanization happens?
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
The federal government is incredibly expensive, and not worth the cost; we really would be okay without a world-dominating military that can attack anywhere in the world in 24 hours. Our state governments are 100% capable and there is no need of the redundancy.
The FED goliath all costs much more than the returns, and only makes the military and banker profiteers wealthy.
You don’t seem to understand economies of scale
Yes your feds are inefficient, but the cause isn’t simply size, it’s deliberate wastefulness for political points
And that can be changed
And what are you going to do post-balkanization when the southern states decide to legalize slavery?
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
Literally not. There are ways to reduce suffering via a UBI + rent stabilization + jobs bills like we’ve done in the past, for instance. It happened during covid—we have the infrastructure. That alone could offset a shitton of unnecessary suffering while they figure out a new economic model. A UBI can be temporary or not if necessary. Point is—there are options. You just gave up is all. That’s a you problem. “Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed”
Even if there is suffering that is going to happen, balkanization is not the best option. It just takes some creative thinking by people.
Are you fine with all the suffering that “the lower classes” are to continue to be subjected to in the case of the US continuing to exist as is, then?
Pales in comparison to the economic benefit to the global working class if US imperialism ends.
Still not good that workers will suffer, but US balkanization would be a good thing for humanity at large.
Power vacuums doesn’t benefit anybody
I mean, I agree that balkanization isn’t the most ideal scenario. I’d much rather see a socialist revolution take over the whole country. Much better outcomes for nearly everyone.
What state do you live in?
Are you suggesting that the only people who get to have an opinion about the US live within its borders?
That’s pretty out of line when the US is currently aggressing multiple other countries
Why does that matter to the argument at hand?
Lets them know their opinion is worthless because they can’t answer the question. If they say “not from the states” who will listen to them?
Is not being balkanized by fascists right now‽
No because that’s not what Balkanization means. Balkanization is the process by which a country splits into various smaller countries, like what happened to the former Yugoslavia.
The US is increasingly dysfunctional, but it’s still in one piece
Then why did they rename the Gulf of Mexico and Lake Ontario‽
Renaming bodies of water isn’t balkanization either…
“Ahhh yes everyone! Who remembers when the Slovenians, Serbians, and Croations renamed the Mediterranean Sea!? Clearly is a necessary step of Balkinization… WAYMENT!”
They’ve not been renamed. Trump proclaimed it from his ass and twelve people on earth with access to a popular driving app accepted it and changed the names on the said app.
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Wait are we all meant to be pro-US?
This meme is just libel. There’s no way a tankie would support the Confederacy
Zionazis like godric are experts in libel
One would think so, but then we see the wild mental gymnastics going on to defend Russia. Pretty wild stuff!
… so you are a zionist?!
And youre insulting tankies?! You are a tankie!
I have seen more wild mental gymnastics from people defending the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) and claims that the rest of the world is bad for defending itself against it.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on its borders (or otherwise in position to attack, like with Iran), especially after said invader carries out a coup against a neighbouring state?
and claims that the rest of the world is bad for defending itself against it.
So, let me guess – the invasion and occupation of Ukraine is a defensive action then?
You do know NATO is a defensive alliance, right? The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.
You do know NATO is a defensive alliance, right?
So defensive that they can’t stop invading everywhere?
The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were such defensive actions, and so is the genocide of Palestine, according to you.The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.
Name a single NATO state that did not participate in either of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Include Ukraine as a “NATO state”.
It has been the USA (& allies) invading, nobody denies that. For example the 2001 Afghanstan invasion was started by the USA, the UK, Australia and taleban, and most other countries got involved after the United Nations gave the permission to ISAF - other here including most other NATO countries, and at least 24 non-nato countries. At that point it was not an NATO invasion, it was UN trying to help clean up the mess that was Afghanstan civil war, which started in 1978 already. Did that succeed? No. Was it the entirety of NATO just randomly invading Afghanistan? Also no. In Iraq in 2003 USA plus the coalition of willing, was not the entitity of NATO either. The genocide of Palestine has been going on practically from the beginning of Israel, the latest whole huge mess has not been a NATO operation either.
The usual claims, that every time any NATO countries get involved with some unlawful USA invasions, is just part of Russian propaganda tactics, trying to pretend its bordering countries joining NATO, because of the risk of Russian invasion, is somehow NATO trying to attack Russia. Claiming all these wars are just “NATO invasions” is downplaying the complexity of these situations, in attempt of trying to justificate Russian invasions. The whole reason countries like the Baltics - and now Sweden and Finland - have joined NATO, is because Russia invades its neighbors the moment it wants, like it has done in Ukraine.
//Edit
(I did not realize it while writing this comment, but the account I answered seems to be just an ordinary Russian propagandist. They are doing the classic tactics, so I will just block and move on, but for any real person reading this, how to easily recognize them is:- Blaming “the West” for everything, and defending what Russia does
- Bringing up the history of colonization in discussions, and using it to justify what Russia does
- Claiming everything the USA does is NATO doing it
- Making simplified claims about complicated things, like anything considering the middle-East
- Using the genocide of palestinians to justify what Russia does
- Claiming Ukraine has nazis, is controlled by NATO etc.
- Using any claims to justify Russia invading its neighbors
- Claiming NATO or European countries want to invade Russia
- Defending the invasion of Ukraine
- Lack of knowledge, or pretended lack of knowledge, of the situation, history and relationship with Russia, of the Russia’s border countries, like Ukraine, Baltics and Finland
- Writing longer and longer answers, trying to make you exhausted by misunderstanding arguments you make, and forcing you to individually correct their claims
Same logic applies to Chinese propagandists too, except they will also defend China genociding their minorities and use Chinese state sponsored sources. The best reaction is to point this behavior out, and move on. Taking part in further discussion just allows them to spout the propaganda more, and give visibility to it.)
//Edit2
(Oh, and ordinary russians are not the same, as Russia’s leadership. The problem is russian imperialism - as in the belief in the great Russian empire, that has the right to invade its neighbours or do anything - that cannot be eradicated by any other means, than Russia collapsing from the inside, and russians giving up on it. Putin does not care about russians, to Kreml they are just resources to throw into the meat grinder.)Going to note that you failed to point to any NATO states that did not invade Iraq and Afghanistan.
We can already safely conclude that NATO is not a defensive alliance.It has been the USA (& allies) invading, nobody denies that.
You did, and let me quote you again:
The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.
In case you want to pretend otherwise, NATO is the US and its allies/vassals.
For example the 2001 Afghanstan invasion was started by the USA, the UK, Australia and taleban
The Taliban invaded Afghanistan in 2001? This has to be a joke.
At that point it was not an NATO invasion
Yeah, it was. It was organised by the core of NATO, and it was perpetrated by NATO states and their puppets.
If you disagree, then tell us which states participated in it that were not de facto NATO states.
it was UN trying to help clean up the mess that was Afghanstan civil war
The UN is an organisation that is controlled by NATO. You are arguing that NATO giving itself green light to invade Afghanistan somehow proves that NATO did not invade Afghanistan.
Was it the entirety of NATO just randomly invading Afghanistan?
Nobody said that it was “random”. It was a deliberate move to resubjugate Afghanistan.
Why are you even trying to imply that somebody claimed that it was “random”?Also no. In Iraq in 2003 USA plus the coalition of willing, was not the entitity of NATO either.
Ok. Which ones of those states were not de facto NATO states?
The genocide of Palestine has been going on practically from the beginning of Israel
Correct. A genocidal settler-colonial project planned by the NATO states and their zionist groups since before the formation of NATO.
the latest whole huge mess has not been a NATO operation either.
It’s the same polities that were behind things like the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
The usual claims, that every time any NATO countries get involved with some unlawful USA invasions, is just part of Russian propaganda tactics,
Haha. Seems like reality is just part of the “Russian propaganda” that lives in your head rent-free. Apparently, when something contradicts the notion of righteousness of the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, it’s just “Russian propaganda”, and for some reason can be assumed to be false or ignorable.
Notably, you never actually question actual NATO propaganda that is verifiably a thing.trying to pretend its bordering countries joining NATO, because of the risk of Russian invasion
And yet, it’s NATO that is the most prolific invader in the world and pushed for war with Russia.
Also notably, none of Russia’s neighbours had issues with being invaded (no, Georgia attacking the peacekeepers and South Ossetians is not an act of Russian aggression), including the pre-coup Ukraine.If you think that the states that join the gang of invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan to plunder Africa and Asia is fine because of a hypothetical risk of invasion by Russia (contrary to the history of its actions) and, well, participating in those invasions and genocides is fine, but Russia defending itself against attacks by the entity that has always been invading and doing genocides throughout its existence and which has broken promises made to Russia about not expanding towards it is somehow bad, then what you want is for the rest of the world to just roll over and get enslaved by you.
is somehow NATO trying to attack Russia.
Attempting to become a part of the most prolific invader in the world that has a history of, well, doing invasions and genocides, as well as constantly breaking promises is, in fact, an act of aggression.
Going to also remind you that NATO has carried out war crimes against Russia, and has been targeting civilians and nuclear power plants. That is what you support, in addition to all of the other “defensive” NATO actions like invading Iraq.
Claiming all these wars are just “NATO invasions”
Cool. Which NATO states did not participate in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?
in attempt of trying to justificate Russian invasions.
Ok. What are these “Russian invasions”, plural?
The whole reason countries like the Baltics - and now Sweden and Finland - have joined NATO
You mean the states that worship WW2 nazis and have participated in invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan (as well as other ones), and have been beneficiaries of colonial subjugation of the Global South? Those states?
is because Russia invades its neighbors the moment it wants, like it has done in Ukraine.
And when else did Russia invade its neighbours “the moment it wanted”? I can name a lot of cases when NATO invaded whenever it wanted.
Also, it is really silly how you just sweep under the rug why Russia “wanted” to attack Ukraine in the first place.
Quick question: can you tell me what defensive operations NATO has performed? Like stuff it did in its own countries? This isn’t a trick question, there are answers.
are you OK? You do know that nato funded and sent mercenaries to conduct the coup of Ukraine right?
They tried the same thing with Afghanistan but the people there werent having anyof that.
ALSO nato has been involved in more aggressive military operations than defensive ones since its conception.
Im not saying the Russians are heroes or anything Im just givknf you the facts lol
I will just repeat what I wrote:
It has been the USA (& allies) invading, nobody denies that. For example the 2001 Afghanstan invasion was started by the USA, the UK, Australia and taleban, and most other countries got involved after the United Nations gave the permission to ISAF - other here including most other NATO countries, and at least 24 non-nato countries. At that point it was not an NATO invasion, it was UN trying to help clean up the mess that was Afghanstan civil war, which started in 1978 already. Did that succeed? No. Was it the entirety of NATO just randomly invading Afghanistan? Also no. In Iraq in 2003 USA plus the coalition of willing, was not the entitity of NATO either. The genocide of Palestine has been going on practically from the beginning of Israel, the latest whole huge mess has not been a NATO operation either.
The usual claims, that every time any NATO countries get involved with some unlawful USA invasions, is just part of Russian propaganda tactics, trying to pretend its bordering countries joining NATO, because of the risk of Russian invasion, is somehow NATO trying to attack Russia. Claiming all these wars are just “NATO invasions” is downplaying the complexity of these situations, in attempt of trying to justificate Russian invasions. The whole reason countries like the Baltics - and now Sweden and Finland - have joined NATO, is because Russia invades its neighbors the moment it wants, like it has done in Ukraine.
Don’t forget how they will also criticize western leftists and progressives endlessly for not being perfect and not even mention the right wing or non-western dictators. Bernie Sanders and AOC are apparently basically Nazis but Stalin was fiiiiine and who even cares about keeping fascists out of power.
I’ve said this in another comment, so likewise I’ll preface that I’m not from the US so I use liberal as in classical liberalism, but under a materialist interpretation that I’m prone to agree with, liberalism is a bourgeois conservative ideology, thus a liberal is inherently in favor of the status quo and capitalism. So really, it’s not about perfection, but rather an irreconcilable difference, or a contradiction, if you will. This is not to say that progressive liberals/social democrats can’t enact meaningful material reforms, but usually not without confounding factors.
As for excusing Stalin and dismissing the opposition from progressives against the real threat of the far right, can’t say I’m fond of the tribalism so common, but not exclusively, with MLs either.
Obligatory fuck the USSR, rest in piss
ok… but why fuck the USSR?
Berlin wall, for one. Yeah, it was done by the German Democratic Republic, not the USSR, but DDR was a puppet of the USSR, so the USSR is culpable here, just as the USA today is culpable for what Israel is doing.
Supposedly build to keep fascists out, but if that were true, they’d have build it the other way around. If you shoot at a fascist before they attack the rampart, you start an offensive war with West Germany, which you don’t want. Meaning, a theoretical attacker on the West German side of the wall could roll up with heavy construction equipment and just knock the strongest part of the defense down, before shooting back is allowed. In fact, since the wall is opaque, the guards wouldn’t even know what is happening until the wall is breached. Which is probably why the West Germans got to decorate their side of the wall. Of course, no West German would have a reason to breach the wall, because they were just allowed to cross over at the official check points.
…do you have any reasons relating to the living conditions of the average person in the USSR relative to people in other nations at the time?
Europe will never forgive the USSR for things like the 8-hour working day, women’s rights, fighting against colonialism (including Germany and Japan, but also including many other places, like Vietnam, Mozambique, Korea, etc.), massively improving life expectancy and education, guaranteed housing, and otherwise improving workers’ living conditions.
We didn’t rely on the USSR for the 8-hour working day or women’s rights
The presence of the USSR absolutely caused capitalist countries to make concessions on those things.
Further, who were the people in those respective countries who fight for those things? By and large, Communists
You did rely on the RSFSR for the 8-hour working day, to be precise, but, for example, the criminalisation of marital SA was first done in the USSR.
And yes, your empire did internally justify improving workers’ living conditions by the fact that it would reduce communist support. This includes the 8-hour working day, which only started being a thing after the bolsheviks set it up.
Don’t forget how the idea of anti-authoritarianism is just reactionary and therefore can be hand-waved away. Dictatorships are cool as long as they align with the “correct” principles.
“Dictatorship” is just a word for “a state that my empire told me to hate”.
“Anti-authoritarianism” is almost always just support for colonial subjugation of the world by NATO.
Yes, OUTSIDE of the western bubble, the concept of right wing communists is pretty common. But as soon as westerners see it they’re like “Why are you Communist AND criticizing the progressive left?”
Welcome to your first encounter with right/conservative/traditionalist or Nationalist Communism.
This is not a difficult thing to grasp:
Communism/Socialism are ECONOMIC as well as political philosophies. So you can have ECONOMIC views that can have either left or right POLITICAL philosophies attached.
Understand?
Supporting reactionary uprisings is actually the liberal thing.
Case in point - all the clamouring for slaver rulers in Tibet.The Tibet thing is just CCP propaganda
Don’t know what “CCP” is, but it’s pretty silly how brazenly you ignore reality just because your masters told you that “Iraq has WMDs” again.
CCP is the chinese communist party. Who brought up Iraq?!?!
Iraq was clearly brought up by that commenter as a metaphor for the current haranguing in the west about China. Same shit, different enemy. The manufacture of consent continues with little resistance.
CCP is the chinese communist party.
Ah, so you misspelled “CPC” - “the Communist Party of China”.
Who brought up Iraq?!?!
I mean, you keep uncritically believing what the people who sold you on Nayirah’s testimony and Iraq’s WMDs say about their enemies.
Yep, that’s the quote from every liberal: “Yay slavery”
-The average dipshit redcap uncle, and/or Tomorrow_Farewell
I mean I don’t know what you’re trying to say here cuz yeah that’s objectively correct. Liberals valued the concept of private property so incredibly highly that slavery was extended and preserved in most of the world when it didn’t need to be. That is undeniably their legacy.
Considering how many liberals support things like returning slavery to Tibet, or enslaving Libya, or doing similar things to Syria, Palestine, Korea, Russia, Afghanistan, etc. they might as well be saying that.
Hell, you do support NATO attacking and subjugating the rest of the world, so why pretend as if I don’t have any examples?
Speaking of examples, you haven’t pointed out any socialists who supported the Confederacy at the time, nor any socialists who do now.
In honor of labor day and all those who sacrificed for better working conditions I’ve been thinking of ways to make our voices heard. I think protesting at FAA air traffic facilities is a great option. If we keep controllers from accessing their jobs the air space shuts down. This would be a huge blow to Trump!
Let me explore how we organize these protests. The beauty is most of these employees are sick of going to work because they HATE TRUMP! They just need to see the public is on their side and we need to give them a reason to not show up for work! Air traffic controllers think their duty is to go to work and pretend everything is normal, if we protest right in front of them they will know the public wants them to act!
We will also not hurt the individual. The air traffic centers where there is a higher volume of controllers are paid very well. They also have great union benefits. Including leave pay called “weather leave”, which is usually time paid for absence from work due to adverse conditions. Well protests right outside their workplace is an adverse condition and the union will make sure the federal government pays the individual if they can’t make it to work!
So how do we organize this. I think we should target the air traffic centers “ARTCC”. These are large radar facilities where 100+ employees work every day. They have one gate access point. You can start off small, just on the sidewalk with signage expressing that serving Trump is shitting on the Constitution (this is a common debate between federal employees now) This can be as small as 1 person just out there on the sidewalk peacefully holding up a sign. Totally legal.
Now if we have enough numbers we can start “crossing the street” protests. Pedestrians legally are allowed to cross the street in front of the entrances to these centers and we can utilize slow walking speeds to delay entry to employees. Usually this should be done between 6-9am and 2-6pm as those are shift change hours.
Finally a lot of controllers may find other reasons to not show up to work. Emotional distress, lack of sleep, or fatigue are all Union protected reasons controllers could get PAID time off while we the people protest against the trump regime. Once the administration is deposed the worker individual can return to work normally with little impact to their financial situation!
So now the locations of the centers:
This is the issue, they are typically located outside city areas. So I don’t expect huge numbers of people showing up but like I said, 1 or 2 people protesting is still worth it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Air_Route_Traffic_Control_Centers?wprov=sfla1
So this is my protest idea. It’s one way to affect Trump adversely, a lot of federal employees are sick of this shit, THEY JUST NEED A REASON SO LET’S SHOW THEM WE WANT THEM TO FUCK TRUMP OVER
So you read all this and you’re still thinking “oh well nothing near me and I can’t do much” Well you probably do have a FAA airport near you with a control tower, you can protest there, or many other agencies that are run by the federal government. Finally you can copy this and spread it. You can edit it if you need to but just spread this idea.
Life in the USA cannot continue to go on as if this is all normal, something has to break! It’s Labor day weekend as I write this, let’s demonstrate labor still has the fucking power!
something something something ALAMO!
