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Meanwhile “aggressive” vegan messaging just describes things for what they are, even downplaying them, because there is no way to describe the horrors in words
Vegan, speaking gently and matter-of-factly: “Using animal’s bodies for producing consumable goods involves rape, imprisonment, torture and murder. Leftists are anti-exploitation and anti-capitalist, and using living bodies for profit entails that.”
Leftist, yelling in response: “StoP foRciNG yOUr beLiEfs On mE, vegan, veGaNisM iS a bouRgEOIs phIlOsopHy!”
Vegan to leftist: Hey you know that pig that you’re eating part of probably died screaming in a gas chamber? Are you ok with that?
Leftist: omg stop being so aggressive don’t you know there are reasons why I can’t go vegan?
Also that leftist: You have florp installed on your computer? Don’t you know that one of the developers of florp made some posts on twitter saying they support Israel? Do you like fascism? What is your problem?
Please make it make sense.
Just today I saw a lengthy comment chain were one commenter argued first that is was too expensive to vegan, and after doing the math themselves (and thus showing that it was indeed cheaper), they moved the goalpost to argue that it was inconventient and never gonna happen on a large scale, because of calorie density.
Guess who is also arguing under this post? What a surprise…
Sometimes I’m wondering why I’m even engaging in these discussions at all. By now it’s probably just because I’ve reiterated the statements so often, that I just have the sources easily available, but I always know the outcome before I even post an answer. Such people aren’t really interested in actually discussing veganism.
Do you mind if I ask what you eat for breakfast usually? I try to eat vegan for most of my meals but after a while I’ll start to feel pretty off and I cave in. It’s like I can’t totally shake it.
Do you make sure you’re actually eating enough and balanced meals?
My breakfasts are usually either leftovers or oat porridge. Sometimes bubble and squeak, chickpea pancakes (savoury), bean based dips on bread, TVP patty breakfast muffins, or kimchi pancakes
Thanks, this is already giving me some more inspiration. So far I’ve had the best luck with oat porridge with nuts and fruit in it. I think I just need to push through until it’s a new normal. Like quitting smoking or something.
I feel like I eat quite well at lunches and dinners, and no trouble avoiding animal products there. Snacks are usually nuts or a homemade muffin… I feel like I’m so close to going all the way.
Junk food is something I miss the most and I have found this guy: https://theeburgerdude.com/ awesome.
Sometimes you just want gross slop and his recipes are all pretty much that. Although the burger patties are actually relatively nutritionally sound (so is everything tofu based and not deep fried) if you don’t have sodium intake issues.
Not at all! However I’m not sure if I’m the best person for that, my breakfast eating habits aren’t the best, I’d say :D
I’ve been raised with eating cake for breakfast, as my mother really likes to bake. Or, if there was no cake, bread (the german kind, I guess that might make a difference from a nutritional point of view) with marmalade. This caused me to also pick up baking and experiment with recipes to make vegan versions of them, which was a lot of fun and is now a new hobby.
Other than that, I usually drink black tea during breakfast, as I don’t drink coffee.
But most important is that you find your own “rhythm”. Eating habits and needs differ a lot between people. A friend of mine gets really hangry if they don’t eat a small snack every few hours in between meals. I can go for half a day without eating, but then also eat way too much afterwards.
OK day one was really rough not gonna lie, but day two and I think I’m getting into the swing of it.
I ended up g roughly following this tofu scramble recipe.
I’m going to be kicking myself if all it took was pushing through one bad day…
Anyway thank you again for your supportive words, they definitely helped push me through my reticence.
Awesome! That recipe sounds really nice!
One thing that has been going through my mind, but I didn’t mention in my earlier reply: another approach would be to look at what you eat in the morning and trying to get similar macronutrients, i.e. do you usually eat more protein, carbohydrates or fats in the morning. Then you could try to find a mix that fits for you. But seems like you have it figured out :)
Thank you! I know no advice will be universal, but it’s just helpful to hear how other people are doing, and it helps normalise it too. Like eating vegan is something regular people do.
Good advice on finding a rhythm. For instance if I ate cake or pancakes I’d probably crash out hard before noon. But after that I find I’m able to tolerate baking much better.
Probably one of those nutritionally dense breads like Ezekiel would work for me.
Like eating vegan is something regular people do.
I get what you mean, but it’s phrased a bit weirdly 🙃
Hehehe, I was there. I feel famous 😎 kachow!
there are reasons why I can’t go vegan
The one which pisses me off the most are the people claiming their autism prevents them from maintaining a vegan diet because the mouthfeel is so triggering they’d rather starve.
I’m curious about the gas chamber. I won’t deny that industrial meat production is cruel at best, the gas chamber makes little to no sense. It is far more expensive than the expediency of a bolt gun, and runs the risk of contamination (unless it’s nitrogen but the information I found in an admittedly cursory check says nitrogen suffocation is not used on animals.)
Wanna take a look? https://www.farmtransparency.org/videos/frbqvwrjoo
I haven’t watched that video, not sure how horrifying it is. That site has lots of videos of electrocution and captive bolt gun if you’d like to see how humane they are. Personally I would not euthanize myself using any of these techniques but maybe you would and thus maybe you will think they’re humane.
The answer as to why, is as all terrible things money. Throughput is high, CO2 stays where you put it and it’s cheap, nobody cares if pigs spend their last moments drowning and panicking.
Pigs have very thick skulls, they are powerful and rather noble creatures when not locked immobile in a pen and overfed (not much difference between domestic pigs and boars really, they grow large and hairy if you let them roam wild). Bolt guns and electrocution have an extremely high rate of failure on them.
Edit: everyone always asks for proof, never looks at it, and downvotes it.
Why ask, why be dishonest about whether you care?
I believe it was Joey Carbstrong who lifted the lid on this particular thing, but there was some footage of the gas chambers having trotters in them. why? Because pigs will thrash so hard they literally rip their feet off while they’re being gassed. Humane? Nah.
I don’t know how people can do that, it’s so vile.
Me making a week’s worth of bacon and eating it on my sandwiches every lunch last week: This was so not worth it. I really gotta reassess my food choices…
Notable case of Goomba fallacy.
There surely are fire breathing anti capitalist types who have some personal animosity against vegans but it seems likely these are not always the same people.
I’ve met a lot. Some of them even write books lol. Check out gelderloos for example
That’s not really a vegan unique thing.
There are many varieties of leftist that are extremely focused on purity testing everyone and automatically reject anyone that isn’t sufficiently pure by their standards.
I choose to avoid them.
Im gonna go out on a limb and say that these two statements are not coming out of the same people, and that “the left” is being employed here as a uselessly broad umbrella term including both actual leftists and liberals, as usual
Class, see here where this same user defends a really weak carnist argument while impugning “internet vegans” for their rhetoric:
https://lemmy.ml/comment/27573904
Almost exactly what the OOP was referring to. A vegan-hating tankie. Whataya know, they do exist!
I dunno though, seems to me like they simply can’t pick an opinion to hold with any consistency and simply enjoy stirring shit up for the little ego boost they get for talking down to people on the internet.
Lol cry harder halfwit
You’re the only one who’s crying
If you’re gonna lie make it believable
You’re losing and you know it.
It’s genuinely satisfying for me knowing just how much my existence fucks you up
You’re losing and you know it.
What a sad existence, that such is how you derive satisfaction. I guess you don’t have any real hobbies…
You keep dishing out advice that you need to learn to take yourself
Your retorts are baby-school, you are like a baby
Hahahaha, it’s so ironic to hear that from you 🤣
You’re losing and you know it.
You’re my biggest fan
And I thought vegans are normally considered to be part of the woke left, at least by every outsider…
Hence the paradox of veganism, according to the right it’s a woke leftist thing. That is until you hang out with woke leftists and they are like ‘yeah, no we don’t support veganism’.
If there is one thing lemme has taught me is that there are a lot of prominent leftist vegans, but leftists in general do not support veganism, but very often are openly anti-vegan.
That’s crazy, I’ve experienced the complete opposite. All the leftists I know either are vegetarian or vegan or are supportive and accepting towards it.
That’s just a mathematical impossibility. A majority of the population identifies as progressive. Vegans are a tiny fringe.
Strictly anecdotal but everyone I know, from leftist to liberal, are positive to others being vegan. They just don’t do it themselves.
That’s not now it works. You can be an ally to queer people while being straight, but you cannot be an ally to vegans while paying for the rape and murder of vulnerable individuals. People who needlessly torture and kill the individuals I love are not my ally, no matter what lip service they pay me.
“I think women should have the right to vote. But not my wife!” “I support child protection laws, but I depend on my kid’s income.” These are not allies! These are merely morally inconsistent people, who we cannot count on for anything, least of all honest self-examination.
An ally gladly cooks vegan, endorses restaurants with good alternatives, eat vegan cuisine.
Everyone has different struggles and priorities. Some people fly, some drive a car, some use LLMs etc. Doesn’t mean they’re evil. For me being vegan is really really easy, and I know that’s not the case for everyone. But I know a lot of people who eat very little dairy and meat because they believe in the cause.
How can you say that cooking a nice meal makes up for killing people I love? That’s insulting. Veganism isn’t about me. It doesn’t matter how they treat me. Treating me well or treating me poorly does not make someone an ally, what matters is how they treat animals.
Someone who is plant based but does not do activism or doesn’t identify as vegan or something, that could be an ally. Someone who murders vulnerable individuals and then tells me they support my cause is literally the oppressor.
A majority of progressives… aren’t really leftists. They’re just opportunistic liberals.
I just don’t get it. Why so focused on leftists? Are rights actively pro vegan? This sub is so dumb lol
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It’s not that the ‘rights’ are pro-vegan it’s that saying you are against animal abuse shouldn’t be a political thing similar to the way that you are against child abuse or spousal abuse shouldn’t be political.
(Yeah I know saying you are against child or spousal abuse is somehow a political thing these days, but doing the bare minimum shouldn’t be political, at least in my personal opinion.)
The famous achieving of utopia by doing nothing and crying on twitter strat
“we need to radically transform society”
“I agree, tried eating different?”
“omg too hard”
Not trying to pick a fight, trying to understand…
Can you explain how going vegan (I assume what you’re referencing when you say “eat different”) would stop, slow, or in any appreciable way alter the rise of fascism? Or genocides? Or police brutality?
The two seem, while granted one is exponentially better for the planet as a whole, completely disconnected from one another?
Or are you merely saying that the act of switching eating habits is good practice for the hardship and sacrifice required to change the other, aforementioned issues?
The entire moral foundation of leftism is is that we ought to arrange the world such that suffering is not inflicted on others for the gain of the few.
If you are unconcerned with the horror of carnism you are only concerned with the rights of those you deem sufficiently similar to you based on arbitrarily selected metrics, the reciting of which has a curious tendency to make someone sound like a Nazi: intelligence (as defined by an ability to peform certain specific tasks rather arbitrarily selected), or appearance, or genetics.
Either we are concerned with suffering or we are not. The practice of continually and regularly brutalising other creatures we know feel and suffer as much as we can know any other human does harms us, slaughterhouse workers suffer PTSD and display rates of violence above the normal. There are reasons that Nazis copied factory farming. It trains us in the process of dehumanisation (even that term is loaded), it harms the people involved, it harms the animals, and it gets you practicing that it is simply ok not to care or change anything if the treats you get by doing so are sufficiently enjoyable.
Thank you for your response, if it’s okay with you and you have time, I would love to ask a few more questions. Again, I promise I’m not trying to pick a fight or poke holes, I’m genuinely trying to reconcile things inside my head:
Has all of human history been fascist since humans have always consumed other beings?
The horrors of factory farming are indefensible, no argument. What about the farm who only raises enough for his family? Take that one far as you want, a single cow…flock of chickens, you get the idea. I’m more interested in the spirit than the semantics.
This one kind of spins off of question one, but I’d like to delve into this one…what about the Native Americans, who harvested, utilized the entire animal, had reverence for its spirit, its sacrifice?
Thank you for your response, it has been enlightening thus far.
literally all arguments for veganism have already been hashed out. Go look them up, it’s a waste of my time to present worse versions off the top of my head.
Understood, have a nice day.
You’re not gonna look them up lmao
You’re framing your expectations of veganism in a way where you will always fail to see its significance. The answer to your question is trivial.
“Veganism as a movement detracts from the rise of fascism, the normalisation of genocides and the prevalence of police brutality by challenging people to be more empathetic, live more sustainably and make individual choices towards a larger goal.”
You will never consider this an acceptable answer however and regardless of how you frame your reason for it being unacceptable, the truth is, for you it has to be unacceptable because you have a cultural connection to eating meat and an emotional reaction to the idea of changing that behavior. And in that sense your thinking is parallel to that of the fascist, the genocider and of the exploitative police officer.
And if none of that makes it to you; vegans as are group are overwhelmingly left wing people. Why would that be the case if the movement itself wasn’t inherently a left wing movement?
Is the “you” in this a general you, or are you speaking directly to me? The answer this question will change how I interpret and respond.
Why would it change how you respond. The core of my reply is devoid of the word.
The wholesale imprisonment, torture, rape and murder of living beings IS fascism, on the scale of trillions of exploited animals per year. How we treat non-human creatures reflects how we treat each other. We’re committing genocide towards all living beings.
So much this.
It makes me wonder whether many “leftists” are just lib poseurs, who are only leftists when it comes to their immediate frustrations in the present. Like the type who “grow up,” earn a decent amount of money and abandon their values under the spell of a bigger paycheck. Or when the economy goes through a normal cyclical upswing, all of the sudden, capitalism is not so bad. Similar to 80s “yuppie” liberals. Then, they talk down to all the “lazy, unsuccessful people.”
Like, if you’re really down with the cause - what you out on your plate is a high modifiable behavior that is well within the realms of cost and feasibility for everyone. If you can say, “Hey, I’m cool with paying half my income in taxes to ensure a better society for all,” why can’t you make another simple anti-exploitation concession?
The excuses are wild. “Veganism isn’t possible for most under capitalism, it’s too expensive, it only becomes feasible under socialism.” WTF, you realize in a socialist world, if ridiculous demand for animal products is still a thing, then the means of production will still find a way to meet that demand?
What
I find leftist political events very isolating since rejecting carnism. It’s hard to take people talking about fairness and humanitarianism seriously when they still have the flesh of vulnerable individuals stuck between their teeth. The whole time I’m there, that’s all I’m thinking. But you know it’s not going to be received well if you say anything…
Yes, clearly leftism is the complete and total enemy of vegans and vegetarians. Surely conservative and liberals will be the true allies. Stunning argument.
Doesn’t look like they claimed any allies.
You can boil vegetables in beef tallow for the electrolytes
Wait, the rich aren’t on the vegan approved diet
the rich are for feeding to the plants
COMPOST THE RICH
The “eating” is actually metaphorical. Just look at Elon Musk and think “I want him in my mouth”
Yeah, just fucking shoot him in the back of the skull and dispose the body responsibly in a mass grave with others like him
We’ll let the utilitarian vegans eat them.
I would never.
I have standards for where I put my fun bits.
I don’t want to be vegan. It has nothing to do with messaging, I just like eating meat. I don’t support the way we abuse animals for food either, but I’m not willing to go vegan over it. Nobody’s perfect. At least I know what I am and can accept that.
…you do support the way we abuse animals for food though, you fund it. Like, intentionally.
Well you could still eat plant based meats from the likes of impossible and beyond. You might say that it’s not the same, but is that difference really worth supporting animal abuse? (and yes, you are supporting it by buying meat). It’s not even the difference between a burger and no burger, it’s between a burger and another burger that maybe tastes slightly different. I’ve never been able to understand that. Am I missing something?
it’s between a burger and another burger that maybe tastes slightly different.
Granted it’s been a decade since i had an animal flesh burger, but those plant based burgers taste better than the animal flesh burgers. Just my 2c
I went vegan around the time Beyond and Impossible burgers took off and after just about six months I’d ordered a Beyond burger but was given a regular one, and it was already pretty fucking gross to be eating dead animals even early on at that point.
Absolutely. All i can think of when i go to the plant based section (which is inevitably in the animal flesh section… for some reason…) is all the dead animals. They had lives. They wanted to live. They probably had friends and families. Ugh. Why can’t we be a plant based world already :(
Because I guess it just tastes so fucking incredible that none of that matters at all. /s
Once the novelty of beyond burgers worse off, I couldn’t really stand the taste. They are nauseatingly sweet, and have a very distinct flavour. Same with their sausages, stakes, they all taste the same.
I’ve since found better more neutral local brands that I like much more.
The gateway drug to even more sustainable local vegan food
I would never support abusing animals.
Absolutely supports abusing animals.
I totally get it! I’m a serial murderer and like, I don’t want people to be hurt or dead but I just like murdering so much. At least I know what I am and can accept that 🥰
I respect your lifestyle, but maybe you can do murder free Mondays? You can stab a hay stack on those days?
You know I was raised in a house where we murdered people daily. It was just normal to me. I had to stir the blood once I was able to stand and hold a spoon.
In your case it’s OK. It would be tremendously inappropriate to ask you to let go of your ancestral traditions.
Baby steps. What if you only murdered people who are probably going to die soon, anyway?
Yeah I feel the same way owning a diamond mine. I know I could improve conditions and to be honest they’re pretty horrifying but I just really enjoy being able to buy whatever I want.
Nobody’s perfect, at least I know what I am and can accept that.
If you knew what you were doing was immoral, and you kept doing it anyway for pleasure….
There is no moral way to use the bodies of animals for our personal consumption.
We can say nobody is perfect, so I’m going to murder some of the time, because I enjoy it.
It’s not nearly as impossible as you think to go vegan.
I absolutely love the taste of meat. But I saw how animals are treated in the industry. So I don’t eat it because I don’t want to fund it. Would I eat it if I was guaranteed that the animal was happy all their life and didn’t notice being killed? Maybe. Probably. But that isn’t possible so I don’t. There are so many good meat alternatives by now that it really isn’t that hard anymore. For me it started with trying those and realizing they’re not bad at all. I would really encourage you to try a few of the available options. Beyond is really good. And when you know that no animal had to suffer and die for your short moment of enjoying a meal, it tastes even better.
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You’re not vegan. Is that purity testing?
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Those people need to town down their redderick a little more than even vegans. What’s with Lemmy and the tolerating all that foaming at the mouth raging lunatics hateing everybody and everything and wanting only the extreme solutions where everybody needs to be killed for any slight deviation in world view? Oo
Almost there, keep going
Excellent bait - but does it serve the vegan cause?
Judging from the responses in the comments, probably not.
It’s a good post if you want to feel good about yourself though I guess?
Edit: given the downvotes, I suspect advancing the vegan cause was never the objective.
I appreciate posts like this. The debates in the comments show people’s beliefs are being challenged and it’s reaching people who are at least willing to consider the argument instead of dismissing it out of hand. You can’t change someone’s mind without introducing doubt, and pointing out a double standard is a good approach. In contrast, a post with no objections is likely only reaching people already convinced.
At least one person has been brave enough to read at least one argument as a result. Are you brave enough to watch how pigs are killed?
If you have sat with the dying and been with them at the moment of passing you will understand that there is no courage in watching death. To suggest so is an insult to those with cherished dead.
Such tactics as these do not convince a person to embrace veganism; it seeks to shame them into being a part of it. Such tactics provoke ire over awe, and are ultimately self defeating; much as the provocative measures in the op.
Do you have the courage to make your case to the unconverted without guilt as your only ally?
Yeah man you’re so enlightened for staying ignorant of the moral cost of your recreational dietary choices.
Why do chuds immediately start writing like they’re penning some missive in the east India trading company the moment they’re called out? Is it a genetic memory of chuddiness?
There is courage in watching death you cause or ignore, and there is also courage in watching the death of those who you are the witness and advocate for, or you know being there for someone’s last moments.
Ah, let’s counter that.
I write in an academic style because that is my profession - but I can understand this might be unusual to you.
In your esteemed brilliance you’ve managed to conflate courage with a sense of justice, protectiveness, and compassion in a single paragraph. The courage of an action lies in the heart of the individual - not in the nature of the action. Your use of the word evokes only images of mindless zealotry - “be brave, do what I tell you”.
There isn’t any more to be said here really; a consequence of your own actions. Such egregious arrogance has only harmed your cause - be better.
Yeah you were so close to behaving better but then someone ridiculed you so you just changed all your opinions about ethics.
I mean it’s actually pretty believable when you just lay it out like that. Any excuse will serve to externalize blame.
wait are you a vegan trying to tell other vegans how to do better messaging or a carnist?
I’m someone slowly transitioning to vegetarian who doesn’t like watching a good cause get mangled by utter arses.
I don’t aim to go entirely vegan as I don’t believe all animal products are immoral (honey, real free range eggs (a friend of mine used to keep chickens, and their life was wonderful), snake shed (great for gardens) etc). I’ve opted for a slow and sustainable transition to where I draw my moral lines as I prefer certain success over dramatic gestures
This is how I was persuaded to make my changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sVfTPaxRwk
The posts I see on c/vegan have made this harder to do rather than easier, as they often denigrate the morality of those who choose to eat meat, and add to my doubts of the real morality of the movement. There are many folks in my life who eat meat who I judge to be morally superior to the shills I find on here.
you do you - but I wonder what does your friend do with the chicks from fertilised eggs? or do they not have a rooster? and if so where do they get their replacement chickens? and if so what do those breeders do with their male chicks?
and again I’m of the opinion that its better 90% of people go mostly veggie than 10% go fully vegan (from a practical point of view) but I’m also of the opinion that being annoying about veganism isn’t like a cardinal sin - people are annoying for much less important things
and yh while I agree that there can be less moral vegans than carnists (eg if you’re a vegan exploiting people) - I would still rate most vegans as more moral than most carnists - since in my experience most vegans do it because of empathy not because of brownie points - from the outside it may seem different but you also have to recognise just how carnist society is and how jaded vegans become when they are faced with the same arguments day in and day out - when their cause (that is the single most beneficial thing one can individually do for people, animals and planet) gets dismissed as “uppity” - and it’s quite hard to not lose your cool when every time some mentions bacon the first thing that pops into your mind is the hellish sound of pigs screaming as they die an excruciating death for the sole benefit of hedonistic pleasure
Does your academic style always include snide personal attacks? And to accuse others of arrogance on top of it. You’re not being a serious person right now.
Oh look, another one.
You are not the only one here who has sat with death or has dead loved ones. That is a nearly universal experience. The fucking arrogance.
Oh look, here it is again.
It’s a post made to a vegan community, for other vegans to read. It’s only function is, in fact, to make the poster feel good.
No one is going to further “the vegan cause” by posting to a vegan community on a fringe website and that was never the point.
That’s the most accurate statement I’ve read in this entire thread. My hat goes off to you for making it.
Yeah, maybe vegans should try less aggressive messaging
I’d opt for smarter messaging - you’ll catch more flies with honey than gall.
