Aren’t most developed countries begging women to have more kids?
Well it’s either that, or start paying people enough to raise families. So they’re going to try everything else first.
Or let immigrants in. Immigrants who might be brown.
Partially. Immigrants are a solution to the ‘I don’t have workers right now, or a time machine’ problem. Fertility and family promotion is about having the people to support you decades from now when you want to retire. Immigrants do tend to have a higher fertility rate, which helps, but it’s still just a small part of the solution.
Immigrants want to be there. They literally choose it. Not always without coercion, but they choose it.
Immigrants are not mystically better at fucking. They’re just people coming in from elsewhere.
Why tell people to fuck more? What’s the actual problem with a shrinking population? If automation gets better, and it has, you can just have more of your population go into medicine and nursing and science than making linegoup at the linegoup factory.
Immigrants have a statistically higher fertility rate than the native population in every advanced economy. It’s not a judgement, just reality.
The problem with a shrinking population is that it requires constantly higher taxes on younger generations, who will be under financial stress due to poor asset appreciation. Leading to political upheaval, and all it’s assorted fun pass times.
For example, US social security won’t have full funding in 6 years. There are several simple fixes, that are all politically toxic. So it’s not going to happen, until extreme events make it happen, or remove the need through mortality rates.
I decided to respond to this for the benefit of third parties:
Notice how our faschy friend here thinks it’s easier to fuck with the preferences and lifestyles of an entire country, completely derail their lives, and create *even a single person,much less the tens of millions that would be required who would exist solely to support the insane logic an archaic century old government program whose perameters-not even logic-just numerical variables-are changeable with the stroke of a pen, and that we should continue to have this government, and keep it our organizing principle.
Statists are blatantly insane, and will never hesitate to impose the map on the territory, no matter how much violence it requires.
I made no statements of preference. Don’t put words in my mouth to make up for your lack of comprehension.
Your personal pet theories are meaningless if they’re unable to affect the world because you can’t accept it as it exists now.
Why do you think their numbers differ? Why do you care?
Never mind, you’re fully linegoup pilled. Not worth talking to you.
https://cis.org/Report/Fertility-Immigrants-and-Natives-United-States-2023
It’s not an opinion, it’s a studied fact.
What they really mean is: we are running out of wage slaves to make the billionaires richer.
That’s one of the reasons why women’s reproductive health is under attack here in the US.
Amazes me that normies dont see how obvious this is. Those in power stay in power by pushing you down making you poor and forcing more children for their war factories.
Somehow this is controversial, even though it is absolute truth.
Amazes me that normies dont see how obvious this is.
It amazes me that people still use the term “normies” unironically.
How else should I describe the less educated non technically literate ?
You can easily just use the word “people” in that sentence and it’s immediately less cringy.
Are they? Are they really? They sound more like tools to me.
Sure, but we lemmings are the .000000001 of the population, we aren’t really normal vs the people going about their day to day, having 6 kids, never having heard of Linux or the fediverse or any news source that isnt owned by rupie. Probably just me, but in the ~50 or so people I interact with monthly IRL, I can’t name 1 who doesn’t fit that mold.
There are a lot of countries that boast many family benefits, but their fertility and birth rates are still falling. Like Finland.
I don’t think this is a real problem. Women having more choice over when they have children is what is affecting the rates. That’s not a problem I think we should solve.
Finland threw a small amount at the problem. France had the most all around approach that did show results, but it is still not enough.
Populations are going to decline. The elites are more interested in fighting over who gets to keep their stuff than on any consequences that might have for the world.
There have been several countries to throw money at this problem and it doesn’t really help. The root of the “issue” is women having more control over their own bodies and reproductive health. Women are choosing to delay having children and having as many children, which isn’t a problem at all except for the ruling class.
The question remains, did they do it right. The easiest way to fuck it up would be to means test it and mire it in bureaucracy or have some kinda of grift.
In Iran, after the revolution, the Khomeini called for more children and population growth quickly moved to 4%. Then in the 2000 they did some campaign “two children are enough” bla bla and it worked as well. This is evidence that just simple messaging, together with the general socio-economic conditions, can have a drastic impact.
So I don’t quite believe what you’re implying, that it can’t be solved through money. It’s just similar to climate change, the costs are immense.
A fundamental issue with quality of life today is that both parents HAVE TO work today and neither can stay at home to actually raise the children. What kind of life is that? Since the dawn of time it was that women stayed at home and could watch the children at least for half the day. Today it should be either husband or wife staying at home. The other thing is that “outside” is no longer a public place for children to roam and play.
These things are very simple to change and it’s not complicated, it just takes a lot of money and will. And generally it goes against the interest of capitalists.
Immigration is much easier.
The astonishing fertility decline in Iran began around 1985 in the midst of governmental advocacy for more children and four years before the inauguration of the national family planning program by the government [13]. When launched, the family planning program was effective in accelerating the fertility decline by removing social and economic barriers to contraceptive use through making modern contraceptives available free of charge throughout the country. Family planning counseling and services were provided to rural couples through the country’s rural health networks [14]. At the same time, the desire for smaller family size was on the rise [10] and therefore the program enjoyed a high level of social acceptance. The use of modern contraceptives increased from 27% to 57% between 1989 and 2004 [15]. In all, the level and speed of the fertility decline went far beyond the government’s original conservative targets [15].
Wow, would you look at that. This entire study goes into the details of the boom and bust of population growth in Iran and what a fucking SHOCKER.
It has to do with reproductive health and family planning and marriage age of women. Other factors as well, but y’all looooove to say it’s just a money issue when it’s not. It has everything to do with women’s freedoms.
Alright alright lol that is the better study.
And I’m not saying it’s just money, but also just “earnest” messaging can have effects. If it’s coupled with socio economic conditions.
And right now we’re facing inevitable climate change, escalating wealth inequality, very high inflation, war in Europe with an outlook of more war, a huge refugee wave looming, automation and AI relegating job security to a historical concept, uncertainties about future horrors technology, social media effecting how people perceive reality… so obviously it’s not just that.
And yeah, I agree, many women today don’t want to curtail their careers by dropping out of their job for a decade. But that is also at least partially a manufactured attitude through advertising and PR and can be changed. Except it’s counter to capitalism.
But I’d be curious why you think money alone couldn’t solve this fertility crisis. Or what could. I highly doubt any western country has offered enough money that would make up for giving up the second income.
In Iran, after the revolution, the Khomeini called for more children and population growth quickly moved to 4%. Then in the 2000 they did some campaign “two children are enough” bla bla and it worked as well. This is evidence that just simple messaging, together with the general socio-economic conditions, can have a drastic impact.
I’d be interested in knowing more about the type of contraceptives and reproductive health the women had access to during these times. You can’t just point to that and say it’s because of messaging.
So I don’t quite believe what you’re implying, that it can’t be solved through money. It’s just similar to climate change, the costs are immense.
You don’t have to believe me, it’s playing out right now. There are plenty of countries offering monetary compensation for people to have more children and it barely affects the numbers.
The root of the fall is because women have more control over when and how many children they have.
Why not build better lives for the existing billions rather than make more billions? This is what I don’t get. Kids born today are going to die in the water wars or of heat stroke. No thanks.
because capitalism demands infinite growth and the only way to actually achieve that growth is to have more humans
Makes no sense at all to a logically thinking person. Nothing is infinite. Except maybe space.
Because forcing people to not have children is just as cruel as forcing people to have children.
Who said anyone’s forcing them not to? If they want, go ahead. Its just going to be an awful life for that kid unless youre a billionaire.
There’s a lot to enjoy about life.
It’s possible to talk about issues without punching down on other people and their choices.
Oh sure, I mean I never said people can’t do what they want. But more and more are choosing no kids. Either ways fine! I myself dont really believe in more people when we have hundreds of millions who are starving to death, thats just me. If we could all live in a utopia, sure utd be a great life. But we dont
I agree it’s not a problem. It’s even more ridiculous when media talks about the costs of caring for the elderly but ignore the costs to raise children are greater than costs to care for the elderly. A shrinking population is great for everyone but the ownership class.
Remember, if oligarchs, right-wing politicians, and billionaires consider something a problem, NO IT FUCKING ISN’T!
Right, I agree, but this conversation always misses the underlying reasons why this is happening:
Women having the freedom to control when we have children.
That’s what is truly under attack when the ruling class is pushing for more and more babies. Everyone only wants to talk about the class war on this topic, but they’re missing the bigger picture.
Most capitalism based economies are struggling to grow families. The birthrates in India and China have dropped since adopting western style liberalism. South Korea basically stopped having kids a generation after their civil war. Economics incentivizes poisoning people and makes no one want to have more who have to suffer through it.
Your comment is overly simplistic. This is about women’s control over their own reproductive health.
This looks like a crisis. On many fronts, it is. But “crisis” alone doesn’t capture what is actually unfolding. Something else is going on: underneath the numbers, a gender revolution is quietly manifesting itself.
For the first time in generations, Chinese women are gaining real agency over the most intimate of decisions: whether to have children, and, if yes, when to have them. The forces reshaping these choices are deep and varied: a growing consciousness of women’s rights, rising economic independence, changing expectations around work and domestic labor, and the emergence of communities where such questions can finally be discussed openly. More and more women are questioning the role once assumed to be theirs: as bearer of children. Many are renegotiating it. Some are refusing it altogether.
This is a freedom my grandmother’s generation never possessed. It is also something China’s policymakers seem unable or unwilling to fully understand. They look at the numbers from behind their desks, reach for subsidies and cash incentives, and conclude that financial encouragement will be enough to raise the birth rate again. But history offers few examples of fertility rates rebounding once they have fallen this far. Money alone cannot solve this.
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