• agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    False equivalence fallacy. Just because both are bad, that doesn’t mean they are equally bad. I’m the same vein, they might not be as left as you’d like, but they are certainly more left than the magats.

    • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      The problem is that they keep alienating their voters and losing to fascists, but refuse to ever change.

      • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        Oh yeah. Solid agree. That is a problem.

        Hopefully either they get their shit together or, by some miracle, there’s a viable third party.

        But the shit sandwich is that yeah, they are the only political party with any weight that can go against Republicans.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Hopefully either they get their shit together or, by some miracle, there’s a viable third party.

          Hopefully the weight of the party is no longer sufficient to keep progressives from winning the primaries the party still permits.

          Because centrists are never gonna change, at least not for the better.

          • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            If the weight of the Democratic party isn’t sufficient anymore, it’s because Republicans have taken control over everything. And since they are being the fascist party, I doubt they would let any progressive party gain enough ground to do anything after that.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              If the weight of the Democratic party isn’t sufficient anymore, it’s because Republicans have taken control over everything.

              The weight of the party was not sufficient to stop Mamdani. And yet Republicans do not control New York City.

                • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                  6 days ago

                  And the “you don’t like the centrist wing so you must be a 3rd party guy” assumption rears its ugly head.

                  The party fought against Mamdani. They failed. Sex pest Cuomo lost.

                  • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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                    5 days ago

                    Ok but you can’t say “all Democrats bad” then when someone points out a Democrat you like say “that one doesn’t count”

      • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        Two things should happen.

        1. The Democrat party should change.

        2. Voters should rub brain cells together and vote for far and away the better option, even if that option is awful at promoting themselves and adapting to changes in their base.

      • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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        8 days ago

        I totally agree, they should stop alienating the majority of voters by trying to appeal to radicals that actively smear the party.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Democrats will never accept that they cannot win republican votes by betraying the left.

          • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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            8 days ago

            First of all, they don’t betray the left on 99% of issues, it’s just that populist leftists consider anything less than maximal alignment “betrayal”.

            Second, Trump’s support is plummeting thanks to his disastrous administration, Democrats are poised to sweep the midterms, and it’s a safe bet the next 2 years will be even worse and result in a win in 2028. The slopulist voting block can shove it tbh, they aren’t needed.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              First of all, they don’t betray the left on 99% of issues,

              Don’t lie. They betray the left on wages, worker protections, immigration, trans rights, cannabis legalization, healthcare, wall street reform, police reform, abortion, the Iraq war, the bank bailouts, childcare, family leave, voting rights, I can keep going but you get my point.

              Not only do they do all of that shit, they support an unconscionable genocide in Gaza.

              Not only that, they do everything they can to ratfuck any progressive candidate.

              The slopulist voting block can shove it tbh, they aren’t needed.

              The genocide wing said that in 2024 and now they blame the left.

              • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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                7 days ago

                Brah, Biden was out their saving pension funds, capping healthcare costs for diabetics, strengthening Medicare, and conditioning grant funding on providing good working conditions, wages, and affordable child care. He spent trillions and put worker protections and benefits into everything he passed.

                The guy was the most pro-worker US president I’ve ever seen.

                I actually don’t think you can keep going tbh, because it really looks like you scraped the barrel for every grievance and buzzword you have. Plus you mentioned Wall Street reform and bank bailouts separately, which seems like padding. Half of them prove my point because the Republicans are to blame.

                As for Gaza, I think you are a disgusting person for bringing it up in this conversation considering how many Palestinians would likely still be alive if Harris had won. Imagine trying to both sides with that issue of all things.

                And as far as I’m concerne, nobody needs to “rat fuck” progressives because they are perfectly capable of eating themselves at every opportunity.

                • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                  6 days ago

                  As for Gaza, I think you are a disgusting person for bringing it up in this conversation considering how many Palestinians would likely still be alive if Harris had won. Imagine trying to both sides with that issue of all things.

                  And I think you’re a disgusting person for carrying water for two genocidal pieces of shit long after the election is over. If Harris had put some daylight between herself and Biden on this issue, she might have won and then we wouldn’t be supporting genocide and we wouldn’t have expanded into Venezuela and Iran. But centrists considered that an acceptable price to pay for not having to lie about not wanting genocide for a few months.

                • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                  8 days ago

                  my dude, 2 or 3 people were most of these

                  My dude, democrats always find just enough turncoats. If we’re talking percentages here, legislators defect at a higher rate than the party accepts from voters.

                • edible_funk@lemmy.world
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                  8 days ago

                  I’m half convinced crab is a kremlin bot, his entire comment history is just don’t vote for democrats.

                  • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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                    7 days ago

                    I do get a sense that English isn’t his first language, but yea, he’s like a fire hose of divisive blackpill rhetoric.

                    I don’t even think the ml’s would think it’s impressive enough to brigade, because as sloppy as they are, their talking points are usually more specific then this blind assertion and a laundry list of buzzwords.

            • Squidious@lemmy.zip
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              8 days ago

              You are so correct. Sorry you are getting down voted into oblivion. This place is full of people who read memes instead of long form news.

    • nlgranger@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      True but neither will provide solutions to the problems a leftist party would want to address.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              You said that like it’s a bad thing compared to doubling down on trumps

              It can be a bad thing without being worse than trump, but you can’t pretend I’m a trumpist for not worshiping whatever genocidal shit you demand unquestioning devotion to any other way.

                • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                  8 days ago

                  Yes I can, because you’re actively helping them get elected.

                  Centrists say this about anyone who wants them to change.

                  I bet this comes from some deep seated guilt that you’re partially responsible for his election because you abstained last election.

                  I voted for harris last election, not that any genocide-winger cares.

                  • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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                    8 days ago

                    I voted for harris last election, not that any genocide-winger cares.

                    Lol. According to you guys voting for Biden/Harris makes YOU a genocide-winger. Welcome to the genocide club I guess.

      • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        So? Just because Democrats aren’t doing things the way you want them exactly doesn’t mean

        1-that they aren’t doing some stuff that you kinda would want, even if it’s not perfect and

        2- Republicans, or letting Republicans win, is a good idea.

      • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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        8 days ago

        Sure, if you only care about tankie horseshoe brainrot like leaving NATO or dismantling capitalism. Meanwhile the Democrats have been trying to pass meaningful healthcare reforms for decades and have been stopped at every turn by Republicans. They fight for social safety nets, strong regulations that protect consumers and the environment, and manage it all while not blowing up the economy like every Republican ever that takes the polar opposite positions. So what fringe policies do you care about that warrant both sides’ing these parties? Because on every single issue I care about the Democrats are unimaginably better then the Republicans.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Meanwhile the Democrats have been trying to pass meaningful healthcare reforms for decades and have been stopped at every turn by Republicans.

          Their last big win was a Heritage Foundation policy that they nerfed without a single republican vote because it wasn’t far enough to the right.

          • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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            7 days ago

            I have no idea what you are talking about. You know you exist in an echo chamber right? That the little memes and private language you guys circle jerk each other with don’t make sense here in the outside world?

            Are you talking about the ACA or something else? Because the ACA originally contained a public option, that was the Democrat plan. That’s awesome, pity none of the Republicans voted for it because they hate Obama for being black. But please, keep telling me now both parties are the same.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              I have no idea what you are talking about.

              Yeah, that’s not a surprise. I understand that the past couple decades of history aren’t netanyahu’s slightest whims, so you can be forgiven for not paying attention to them. You see, the ACA is based on a plan that was put forth by the Heritage Foundation. Since it’s not AIPAC, I’ll have to let you know what that is too. The Heritage Foundation is a republican think tank. They tell republicans (and centrist democrats) what their policies are.

              Because the ACA originally contained a public option, that was the Democrat plan.

              And the democratic caucus killed the public option without republicans getting involved.

              That’s awesome

              It would have been if your wing of the party didn’t think that more people going bankrupt and dying wasn’t preferable. Great work.

              The party has been coasting on this for 15 years and meanwhile healthcare has only gotten worse.

        • Matty Roses@lemmy.today
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          8 days ago

          They haven’t been trying. They’ve held both houses and the presidency twice in the 22st century.

          • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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            7 days ago

            You’re right, they’ve actually been succeeding, good catch. Biden’s infrastructure bill was insane, and capping drug costs for seniors and diabetics? What a chad. Strengthening Medicare, conditioning grant funding to companies on whether they provide affordable childcare to employees, raising the child tax credit, bailing out pension funds, I mean god damn, check out his climate policy https://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/ira-charts-a-path-that-is-both-pro-climate-and-pro-worker/

            The man was pro-labour af at every opportunity and passed a shit load of legislation worth trillions. Greatest president in living memory.

            • Matty Roses@lemmy.today
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              7 days ago

              The Child Tax Credit? You mean the one Biden let get killed, doubling child poverty in the process?

              I wouldn’t mention that if I was you, tounge washing the balls of the Senator from MBNA. Who made sure Trump could win in 2024.

              • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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                7 days ago

                Nice cherry pick, followed by bullshit. Also are you trying to say “tongue”, but in an English as a second language kind of way? Kinda sus.

                Now, you say “killed”, but that’s not true because it still exists at its previous level. Biden just boosted it during covid, plus democrats tried to continue it but were a single vote short. Just another example of Dems trying, and Republicans wasting oxygen.

                Either way the point still stands, Biden was the most pro-worker president I’ve ever seen, and the piss babies that disagree are just mad because they don’t know shit about politics, or democracy, or anything really.

                • Matty Roses@lemmy.today
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                  7 days ago

                  plus democrats tried to continue it but were a single vote short.

                  The Democrats literally controlled both houses. What you’re leaving out here is that the Democrats didn’t line up and vote for it. And Biden was the leader of the party.

                  Biden was the most pro-worker president I’ve ever seen

                  Right, who can forget how he got the PRO act passed?

                  and the piss babies that disagree are just mad because they don’t know shit about politics, or democracy, or anything really.

                  Little boy, I was pounding the pavement for the Dean campaign while you were probably sucking on your mom’s tits. I’ve seen exactly the rotating villain play in person too many times.

                  And here we see, like most shitlibs, you can’t answer on the record of your precious Team Blue, so your only response is name calling and hysterical “you’re not SERIOUS, I’m not listening, Dems are so good!” tantrums. No wonder you idiots keep losing to an insane game show host.

                  • gtrcoi@programming.dev
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                    6 days ago

                    You’re grasping at straws and pointing to nothing specific. What is your problem with the PRO act and how does it warrant this rediculous both sides attitude?

                    I’ve listed Biden’s many achievements several times in this thread and none of the slopulists have been able to dispute them.

                    Thinking a party majority is the end of the story is the most terminally online take ever. That’s not how representative democracy works.

        • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          The people you are speaking to simply do not understand the concept of the saying “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good”.

          They want it the way they want it. They don’t want to acknowledge that the Dems are WAY, WAY better than Republicans and that they have absolutely done good for the middle/lower classes. I assume many of them are simply completely unaware of Dem accomplishments because they don’t seem like the type of people to do their homework.

          They honestly think they can magically skip the years/decades of work and magically put a 3rd party in control of our federal government.

      • edible_funk@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        That’s why you vote for progressives in the primaries. But either progressives don’t vote in primaries or there’s genuinely not enough of us to warrant representation in which case we’re all fucked anyhow.

        • nlgranger@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Here in France we don’t have primaries, instead we have various leftist group who compete into attrition and loose the elections. That being said, they do have differing political views, so it is either that or the problem you mention.

        • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          This is the reality that apparently a lot of people on Lemmy don’t want to accept.

      • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        True but neither will provide solutions to the problems a leftist party would want to address.

        There is no remotely viable true leftist party in the United States. Welcome to reality.

    • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      False equivalence fallacy. Just because both are bad, that doesn’t mean they are equally bad.

      That’s not in the comic anywhere. But since the pro-genocide wing never wants to change, you’ll pretend like it is.

      • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        Well, no, it wasn’t in the comic because the conversation is derived from the comic. Do you normally think conversations stay rigidly on only one thing? If you bring up Democrats, naturally Republicans are going to be talked about.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          If you bring up Democrats, naturally Republicans are going to be talked about.

          Mainly by people who don’t want democrats to change.

          • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            No? Because we’re talking about our current political climate?

            Trust me if I had a magic wand or a point of view cannon I’d change the democratic party in an instant. Hell everyone, make a global communist utopia.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              I think we’re talking across each other.

              Republicans are worse and I’ll never deny that. That doesn’t give democrats license to be as evil as they want to be as long as they’re the lesser evil. And to a lot of Americans, myself included, it looks like democrats are doing just that.

              The last election demonstrated that they cannot get away with that behavior. That isn’t me purity testing. That’s me observing what happened. And I think that if the democrats keep acting like Lucy with the football, they’ll get the same results.

              Democrats have not only lost the trust of their voters, they have earned their active distrust.

              And their current actions aren’t exactly helping to repair trust. Ousting David Hogg, refusing to release the 2024 autopsy, interfering with the primary for Maine’s 2nd district. All of these point to a party that cannot be trusted.

              I don’t ever hear anything about what democrats need to do in order to repair that trust and get back the disaffected voters they’ve lost. Just screaming at people with any criticism, regardless of how they voted.

              • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                I get that. I really do. I’d love it if they were better. But I’ll ask what I asked elsewhere: So what’s your solution with the situation we have right now, in regards to voting?

                1- vote Republican, the overt fascist, white nationalists take over.

                2- vote third party, they lose, either Republicans win or a Democrat might win, though doing that might help Republicans win.

                3- don’t vote, and who knows who wins, though not voting trends to help Republicans.

                4- vote Democrat, even though they suck, so that Republicans don’t win. The capitalist, not white nationalists win.

                • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                  7 days ago

                  You’re really not listening at all. I voted for harris. I tried to kick the stupid football. You don’t have to convince me. I understand the argument and it was effective on me. I’m not the electorate more broadly though, and all the patiently explaining and lecturing in the world isn’t going to change the electorate you have. Because that has been tried and it failed. Disastrously. The party simply cannot win as second worst anymore.

                  • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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                    7 days ago

                    And you’re not listening to me. I agree with you.

                    Democrats need to change or get out of the way.

                    Third parties need to be viable.

                    We need to end gerrymandering and get tanked choice voting.

                    But until that happens, assuming none of that happens before the next national election, which option are you gonna take?

          • Nalivai@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            Depends on how relative do you want to be. Are they actually left wing? No, not really, center-right at best. But if you talk about American politics, then there is a left wing and a right wing, relatively, and Dems are what constitute as left, by definition.

              • Nalivai@lemmy.world
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                6 days ago

                I bloody love the state of discourse here, immaculate. You fuckers can’t read for shit, but the worst part you don’t seem to even try. I just hope you at least get some sort of satisfaction out of that, otherwise it would be even more sad, really.

                • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                  6 days ago

                  I took your relative argument and applied it to another example to show how ridiculous it was.

                  To do so I had to have read and understood your previous comment.

                  Rather than respond on topic you decided to move to personal insults, which are a waste of time on an anonymous forum.

      • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        It’s not 1792. Things change over time. Saying that these two parties are the same because they started for the same reason is really ignoring what’s happening today.

          • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            Never said they were left. I said they were the only viable opposition party (as in, opposition to the Republicans) and that they are more left than MAGA.

            And also, so what? Are you saying we should let the far right win?

            • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              The opposition to a Right wing party is not a far right wing party. The Democrats do not oppose any Republican policies except for the issues invented to distract (trans, abortion, etc.). Any issues that put corporations over people, both parties are fully aligned.

              • agent_nycto@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                Ok, yes, they are aligned with capital. Saying trans rights and abortion rights are just a distraction is pretty dismissive of people actually dealing with the consequences of Republican policies though. If you’re saying you can’t tell the difference then you’re actively ignoring problems minorities are facing and I can’t help you pull your head out of the ground.

                • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                  6 days ago

                  Saying trans rights and abortion rights are just a distraction is pretty dismissive of people actually dealing with the consequences of Republican policies though.

                  I’m not dismissing the problem of the minorities. My point is that 1% of people are trans, and <1% of them play high level competitive sports. But they receive >10% of Trump time. This is by design. A distraction away from the 53% completion of project 2025