A painful vote for someone you know sucks, but is a step in the right direction is the right strategy.
Again, the only logical conclusion to this “pragmatic” utilitarianism is reaching a point where you’re talking yourself into voting for dem candidate Ted Cruz as he runs against mecha Hitler. This philosophy is incompatible with being against genocide.
If Trump were a democrat, blueMAGA would be chiding leftists for not voting for him. If, in 20 years, the choice for president is between a democrat who wants to kill 6 million jews, and a republican who wants to kill 10 million jews, will you still be militantly democrat?
The dems, who without a doubt are terrible, at least showed that they will eventually listen to their voters when they swapped out biden’s carcass.
Is this really a point in your favor? How was that debacle anything other than a perfect illustration of how democrats will feign powerlessness, and then adjust course too late? If anything, the democrats can be characterized as too little, too late. They are dooming us to a fascist descent, and we have to make our own party.
Again, the only logical conclusion to this “pragmatic” utilitarianism is reaching a point where you’re talking yourself into voting for dem candidate Ted Cruz as he runs against mecha Hitler
I would vote dem while condemning their actions if it meant an extra 2 million jews weren’t killed. The reality is your argument is literally just the trolley problem and instead of focusing on an issue where either decision is bad and instead focus on everything else
Yes because voting is literally the bare minimum you do. We have first past the post, make sure the least shitty candidate is past the post AND then keep working to fix things, keep working to get better candidates in the next primary.
If Kamala Harris had been elected, we could be protesting for meaningful action in Gaza, meaningful climate action. Instead, those issues have become buried by all the tremendous waves of shit flying out of the republicans.
Yes, I would, but short of overthrowing the government which is highly dependent on both the material realities of the time and the amount willing to do so, it is objectively the better option
I get it, and I agree to a large part, I’m not sure what part of my post was “militantly democratic” though. It’s entirely situational, and without a doubt, the moment it’s viable to dump them, I will. I just don’t think our system nor electorate is capable of the large shift that necessary. Instead think it needs to die a death of a thousand cuts.
The problem is, everyone only seems to want the sea change, the one weird trick. It’s exactly that mentality, that we can fix it all at once, that is why we’re here. If people understand that real change takes time and effort, they might see the forest for the trees and we could all fight against this bullshit together.
But the mentality you have keeps us divided, and insists on a drastic, divisive and impossible strategy. Sorry to be a dick about it, but that’s how I see it.
If, in 20 years, the choice for president is between a democrat who is in openly interested in murdering 6 million jews, and a republican who is openly interested in murdering 7 million jews, will you still be an unwavering democrat?
Will you still be hemming and hawing about how doing things incrementally is the only path forward? Will you tell Jewish people that they have a duty to you, to vote for your preferred genocider? Will you continue to sacrifice marginalized people for this naive hope that a blue wave will come and quell fascism?
Or will you realize that your genocidal political system has lost legitimacy and must be dismantled?
Put another way, did Germans at the height of Hitler’s power have a duty to vote for doomed social democrats, or did they have a duty to tear their government down?
Again, I still don’t disagree. What is your methods for accomplishing these goals though? Not joking, I’m all ears.
Short of marching and throwing them out violently, what is the path forward here? I’m not against that, I just know it’s not going to happen in this country. Maybe if things get worse, but I’m not, and never have been an accelerationist.
We’re saying the same thing in the end, just have disagreement on how to get there.
This is literally the plan. And every day we delay is spitting in the face of Palestinians.
You keep characterizing revolutions as these historical impossiblities, but I’m not sure why. The idea that America cant have a revolution is American Exceptionalism.
The blueprints for this kind of work were eloquently described by Lenin.
I can be for revolution while also acknowledging that short of a miracle, america isn’t ready for one. Until then, I’ll at least try and mitigate the worst of it. The ideas of Lenin work great if there is a figure to rally behind but there isn’t one right now, and I’m not going to be that person
Get organized with your fellow people and create parallel structures that actually look after your community so an alternative to the government actually exists. Vote third party not because voting in a corrupt system will actually change things but because it shows solidarity with the movement and highlights how the system itself is broken.
You are 100% describing the plan that I am. My only difference is in the voting. Voting has never shown solidarity or at least that solidarity has never delivered any results and I don’t see the point in wasting any power we have.
Use the tools of the system we are trapped in to break it.
Here’s the thing. You take enough steps in the right direction, and eventually you are on the right path. It sure had hell beats standing still and letting some jackass drag you in the wrong direction. If you let that happen once, then you have to get back on your feet and starting waking in the right direction just to get back to where you were before.
People say that Democrats are just controlled opposition, and that’s not true. Non-voters are the controlled opposition. Not advocating for themselves, not advocating for basic decency and accountability allows us all to be governed in an indecent and unaccountable way. They’ve been tricked into this by troll accounts saying “both sides are the same”.
It sure had hell beats standing still and letting some jackass drag you in the wrong direction. If you let that happen once, then you have to get back on your feet and starting waking in the right direction just to get back to where you were before.
Agreed! 100%! So then why do you put your all your poltical stock in the party that does this exact blunder every 4 years?
Luckily, the ratchet effect is a mechanical analogy, and not actually relevant to politics.
Democrats managed to get a lot of rights recognized for LGBTQ people, despite heavy republican opposition. I’m old enough to remember hearing about the first federally recognized gay marriage, and the end of don’t ask, don’t tell.
Democrats managed to pass a healthcare plan (abeit a shitty one) despite heavy republicans opposition, and internal politicking by other “just barely” Democrats.
Democrats managed to balance the budget, despite heavy republican opposition.
The ratchet effect is a cute analogy, but it’s not a real thing that is actually taking place. If you want the party to move further left, then you need to vote in primaries, and support further left candidates by talking about them, calling for them, and advocating for them. If your candidate wins, great, but if they don’t, recognize that you need to prevent whatever christofascist shitbag Republicans are running from touching that office.
What happened to moving things in the right direction? One said is the greater evil, it moves things to the right. The other is the lesser evil. It resists movement to the left. Both are evil. Why does the existence of a greater evil blind you to the evils of the lesser? Why is it everytime with you people the immediate response is “Oh so you think both sides are equal?” No. But both sides ARE evil. Stop supporting evil for fucks sake.
Again, the only logical conclusion to this “pragmatic” utilitarianism is reaching a point where you’re talking yourself into voting for dem candidate Ted Cruz as he runs against mecha Hitler. This philosophy is incompatible with being against genocide.
If Trump were a democrat, blueMAGA would be chiding leftists for not voting for him. If, in 20 years, the choice for president is between a democrat who wants to kill 6 million jews, and a republican who wants to kill 10 million jews, will you still be militantly democrat?
Is this really a point in your favor? How was that debacle anything other than a perfect illustration of how democrats will feign powerlessness, and then adjust course too late? If anything, the democrats can be characterized as too little, too late. They are dooming us to a fascist descent, and we have to make our own party.
What an absurd and stupid slippery slope
I would vote dem while condemning their actions if it meant an extra 2 million jews weren’t killed. The reality is your argument is literally just the trolley problem and instead of focusing on an issue where either decision is bad and instead focus on everything else
So you dont have alarm bells going off in your head that you would willingly vote for a literal Holocaust?
Yes because voting is literally the bare minimum you do. We have first past the post, make sure the least shitty candidate is past the post AND then keep working to fix things, keep working to get better candidates in the next primary.
If Kamala Harris had been elected, we could be protesting for meaningful action in Gaza, meaningful climate action. Instead, those issues have become buried by all the tremendous waves of shit flying out of the republicans.
Yes, I would, but short of overthrowing the government which is highly dependent on both the material realities of the time and the amount willing to do so, it is objectively the better option
Then I dont think we have much more to discuss. You would vote for a literal Holocaust.
^ this is a dumb’s person notion of winning an argument
^ this is a holocaust supporter’s notion of winning an argument
You think the argument is over and you won because you invoked a word.
Do better.
Your version ends in even more death. As I said, dumb all around
I get it, and I agree to a large part, I’m not sure what part of my post was “militantly democratic” though. It’s entirely situational, and without a doubt, the moment it’s viable to dump them, I will. I just don’t think our system nor electorate is capable of the large shift that necessary. Instead think it needs to die a death of a thousand cuts.
The problem is, everyone only seems to want the sea change, the one weird trick. It’s exactly that mentality, that we can fix it all at once, that is why we’re here. If people understand that real change takes time and effort, they might see the forest for the trees and we could all fight against this bullshit together.
But the mentality you have keeps us divided, and insists on a drastic, divisive and impossible strategy. Sorry to be a dick about it, but that’s how I see it.
If, in 20 years, the choice for president is between a democrat who is in openly interested in murdering 6 million jews, and a republican who is openly interested in murdering 7 million jews, will you still be an unwavering democrat?
Will you still be hemming and hawing about how doing things incrementally is the only path forward? Will you tell Jewish people that they have a duty to you, to vote for your preferred genocider? Will you continue to sacrifice marginalized people for this naive hope that a blue wave will come and quell fascism?
Or will you realize that your genocidal political system has lost legitimacy and must be dismantled?
Put another way, did Germans at the height of Hitler’s power have a duty to vote for doomed social democrats, or did they have a duty to tear their government down?
Again, I still don’t disagree. What is your methods for accomplishing these goals though? Not joking, I’m all ears.
Short of marching and throwing them out violently, what is the path forward here? I’m not against that, I just know it’s not going to happen in this country. Maybe if things get worse, but I’m not, and never have been an accelerationist.
We’re saying the same thing in the end, just have disagreement on how to get there.
This is literally the plan. And every day we delay is spitting in the face of Palestinians.
You keep characterizing revolutions as these historical impossiblities, but I’m not sure why. The idea that America cant have a revolution is American Exceptionalism.
The blueprints for this kind of work were eloquently described by Lenin.
I can be for revolution while also acknowledging that short of a miracle, america isn’t ready for one. Until then, I’ll at least try and mitigate the worst of it. The ideas of Lenin work great if there is a figure to rally behind but there isn’t one right now, and I’m not going to be that person
Get organized with your fellow people and create parallel structures that actually look after your community so an alternative to the government actually exists. Vote third party not because voting in a corrupt system will actually change things but because it shows solidarity with the movement and highlights how the system itself is broken.
You are 100% describing the plan that I am. My only difference is in the voting. Voting has never shown solidarity or at least that solidarity has never delivered any results and I don’t see the point in wasting any power we have.
Use the tools of the system we are trapped in to break it.
Here’s the thing. You take enough steps in the right direction, and eventually you are on the right path. It sure had hell beats standing still and letting some jackass drag you in the wrong direction. If you let that happen once, then you have to get back on your feet and starting waking in the right direction just to get back to where you were before.
People say that Democrats are just controlled opposition, and that’s not true. Non-voters are the controlled opposition. Not advocating for themselves, not advocating for basic decency and accountability allows us all to be governed in an indecent and unaccountable way. They’ve been tricked into this by troll accounts saying “both sides are the same”.
Agreed! 100%! So then why do you put your all your poltical stock in the party that does this exact blunder every 4 years?
Luckily, the ratchet effect is a mechanical analogy, and not actually relevant to politics.
Democrats managed to get a lot of rights recognized for LGBTQ people, despite heavy republican opposition. I’m old enough to remember hearing about the first federally recognized gay marriage, and the end of don’t ask, don’t tell.
Democrats managed to pass a healthcare plan (abeit a shitty one) despite heavy republicans opposition, and internal politicking by other “just barely” Democrats.
Democrats managed to balance the budget, despite heavy republican opposition.
The ratchet effect is a cute analogy, but it’s not a real thing that is actually taking place. If you want the party to move further left, then you need to vote in primaries, and support further left candidates by talking about them, calling for them, and advocating for them. If your candidate wins, great, but if they don’t, recognize that you need to prevent whatever christofascist shitbag Republicans are running from touching that office.
Democrats did a genocide. They don’t give a fuck about human rights. Lgbt rights were fought for by lgbt people and their allies. Not democrats.
They aided a genocide while the current admin is still aiding said genocide and starting another, both are bad but one is certainly worse
I KNOW.
What happened to moving things in the right direction? One said is the greater evil, it moves things to the right. The other is the lesser evil. It resists movement to the left. Both are evil. Why does the existence of a greater evil blind you to the evils of the lesser? Why is it everytime with you people the immediate response is “Oh so you think both sides are equal?” No. But both sides ARE evil. Stop supporting evil for fucks sake.
Any chance you wanna source those genocide claims?
Liberal scratched
Gotcha, so no. Disregarded.