As long as:
Stolen land is given back, and criminals prosecuted,
Sure.
Jewish people and groups around the world need to issue strong rejection of Israel’s actions.
If they don’t, i’m very concerned that Israel’s crimes will fall back on them in the future.
Let’s look at sentiment from different groups
Young and liberal associate them with Israeli genocide.
Young and conservative is full of full on Nazis.
Politically they aren’t worth much being concentrated in liberal strongholds.
When the old folks who are pro Israel go into the grounds dislike will be a rare point of agreement. Not a great position.
Condemnation of Israel’s actions won’t protect Jews around the world.
Do you think it’s safer to support genocide?
It will protect them from the free palestine crowd, but not from anti-semites. Is there a downside though?
The free palestine crowd contains and covers for antisemites among their ranks.
I’m sure contains, though I doubt there’s a complete overlap, not covers for. People who want a literal genocide to end aren’t automatically antisemites or antisemite apologists. Nor are antisemites, especially Trumper antisemites, automatically in favor of Palestine.
Well yeah, obviously. There are anti-semites everywhere. I meant those whose motivations are “free palestine,” which in my estimate is the main motivation of the free palestine crowd when viewed as a whole – not antisemitism. I don’t mean to say that there don’t exist people who are aligned with free-palestine just because they’re anti-semitic. But there’s no protection from those people either way – so, no downside.
Are you asking every Chinese person to denounce China‘s government for the Uyghurs or Tibet?
No, why?
Why are you asking every Jew to it then?
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There you go again, connecting Israelis to mean all jews.
We’ve tried a 1 state solution for a long time
It’s probably time to start aknowledging the goal of Zionism is to take land from others, and aknowledge that the Zionist have too much influence in politics.
It’s either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
It’s either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
Cutting ties isn’t advocating genocide against Israelis though.
If we look at the modern history of the reigon, the Zionist have been the agressors since NATO made the choice to just give the Palestinians’ land to the Zionists, because the Zionists wanted the land and had an excuse/sympathy after WW2.
There hasn’t been a political party in Isreal capable of being peaceful and fair with their neighbors.
If we look at the modern history of the reigon, the Zionist have been the agressors since NATO made the choice to just give the Palestinians’ land to the Zionists, because the Zionists wanted the land and had an excuse/sympathy after WW2.
NATO wasn’t founded until over a year after Israel was. Soviet aid, in fact, was instrumental in saving Israel after it was founded in '48.
There hasn’t been a political party in Isreal capable of being peaceful and fair with their neighbors.
Okay? That still doesn’t justify genocide?
If you want to be pedantic about what NATO was called when the same members were just the allied forces then idk if we can talk about this in good faith.
Okay? That still doesn’t justify genocide?
Jews are not being currently genocided, Zionists are currently genociding Palestinians. So I feel like that’s what is most valid to focus on.
It seems like most of the “antisemitism” that appeared out of nowhere in the last couple months is just a renewal of an IDF troll campaign. The warmongering Zionists get their trolls to beat the “antisemitism” gong whenever they are starting to look bad in the press.
If you want to be pedantic about what NATO was called when the same members were just the allied forces then idk if we can talk about this in good faith.
… Jesus fucking Christ.
Israel was not ‘given land’ by ‘the allied forces’.
It seems like most of the “antisemitism” that appeared out of nowhere in the last couple months is just a renewal of an IDF troll campaign.
It was the allies who gave the land to the Zionists.
The Haavara Agreement … enabled Jews fleeing persecution under the new Nazi regime to transfer some portion of their assets to British Mandatory Palestine.[2] Emigrants sold their assets in Germany to pay for essential goods (manufactured in Germany) to be shipped to Mandatory Palestine.[3][4] The agreement was controversial and was criticised by Revisionist Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky and by some non-Zionist Jews, as well as by members of both the Nazi Party and the German public.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
We can see the landgrab was even unpopular with non-Zionist jews at the time.
Dude you gotta chill. Palestinians are being erased, and Jews are not. It’s really as simple as that.
Supporting Zionists does not help Jews. And pretending any antisemitism happening against Zionists is as bad as the erasure of the Palestinian people is intentionally ignoring the ongoing atrocities to clutch pearls.
Zionists and Isralis don’t get sympathy from me while committing the worst war crime possible.
It was the allies who gave the land to the Zionists.
Emigrants sold their assets in Germany to pay for essential goods (manufactured in Germany) to be shipped to Mandatory Palestine.
Are you… did you not read what you literally fucking quoted? Not only is that not ‘the allies’, but rather independent Zionist orgs making a deal with Nazi Germany, but it’s not giving land, and it’s not post-WW2 like you claimed.
Dude you gotta chill. Palestinians are being erased, and Jews are not. It’s really as simple as that.
Oh, okay, since Palestinians are being genocided right now, we can call for a little genocide of Israelis, as a treat.
Supporting Zionists does not help Jews. And pretending any antisemitism happening against Zionists is as bad as the erasure of the Palestinian people is intentionally ignoring the ongoing atrocities to clutch pearls.
“Please don’t advocate for genocide or antisemitism”
“Oh, so you think the current situation for ZIONISTS is just as bad as the ongoing Palestinian genocide???”
…
Zionists and Isralis don’t get sympathy from me while committing the worst war crime possible.
Yes, it’s increasingly apparent that you’re quite willing to tolerate calls for genocide as long as the ‘other side’ committed genocide first.
Should European-Americans all “just relocate” since we occupied North America from the Native Americans?
Otherwise I don’t see how you’re any different than the Israelites.
Well one happened in living memory and people are still living in the houses of displaced people in Palestine.
This isn’t just about land. This about homes, farms, legacies, birthright, inheritances that have been stolen by living people from living people. Not a vague concept of belonging.
Well one happened in living memory
Then we just wait another 30 years and it’s okay.
Settler-colonialism in the continental US didn’t end until 1953. Israel was founded in 1948.
people are still living in the houses of displaced people
Millions of people were displaced in Europe and other places of the world during the 1940s, who never got to go back and claim their lost property. 900,000 Jews had to leave Middle Eastern countries in the 1940s and 50s and often lost their property over the course of that.
Congratz you’re starting to learn how it’s problematic to deport people who were born in the reigon.
Congratz you’re starting to learn how it’s problematic to deport people who were born in the reigon.
Luckily, it’s not problematic or worthy of condemnation to deport people who were born in the region if their government commits genocide first. The Israeli Jews have to learn that collective punishment is Good, Actually, as long as it’s in response to previous crimes.
I don’t think we need to deport the Isralis, but they ARE genociding their neighbors so maybe they can’t live peacefully in the reigon.
IMO the Palestinian families that lived there before WW2 have more of a claim to the land. That’s if they can’t stop killing each other.
Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they’re often stupid shitheads as well.
It’s… frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I can’t see descendants of settlers who are en masse being kicked out of their homes and heavily taxed coming together to peacefully build a society with the people whom they ceded their homes to and whom they’re paying those reparations. Can you? How would you go about it without making them so resentful that they either refuse to help rebuild or start attacking the institutions of the new single state?
I see the philosophical balance your solution would bring and it’s what I would want to do if I suddenly found myself a settler/settler’s descendant, but I don’t think enforcing it will lead to lasting peace. Perhaps with an education system that truly integrates children and teaches all of their history, without whitewashing any of it. But I think there’s a very strong cultural attachment in Israel to homeschooling, and don’t know if enforcing public schooling would create further resentment.
It is quite simple. If they dont comply with the law, they face criminal punishment. If they are unwilling to compensate the victims of their land robbery, then all their assets, including abroad, need to be seized and given to their victims.
The sentimentalities of the criminals can not be a detriment to the rights of the victims. Either the criminals obey and work to resocialize, or they face additional punishment.
As the IDF is a genocidal terror organization Israelis, who largely served in that terror organization, are already getting a very good deal, if they are not imprisoned for multiple decades and only the worst offenders are held criminally liable.
They should rejoice at the opportunity given to them to only repay their victims for the damage they have done.
I don’t think it’s very simple at all.
According to the CBS, about 40% of Jews in Israel were born to a father also born in Israel. Given the relative youth of the Israeli population and the fact that it’s been nearly 80 years since Mandatory Palestine existed, the number is probably quite a bit higher (especially because that number only relates to the fathers, not the mothers), but even if only 60% of Israeli Jews are descendants of settlers, that’s nearly 5 million people. Out of a total population of about 15 million people living in Israel and Palestine combined.
A poll published in may showed that more than 80% and more than half of all Israelis support forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and forced expulsion of Arabs from Israel, respectively. That’s five and eight million people. (The poll itself was only published in Hebrew, but I think this is the link).
How can a unified, peaceful country actually be created without “giving into their sentimentality” when somewhere between a third and over half of them feel that way? What is additional punishment? A country cannot afford to imprison that large a proportion of its population, and fines would exacerbate the resentment. I could see some form of community service in the form of war cleanup and having to physically, literally deal with the results of a genocide working to reset people’s perspective on it, but it’s not as though they’re not aware of what’s happening. I don’t know that simply being confronted with the viscerality of the genocide they knowingly support would do much, especially with such a high proportion of the population who do support it.
I’m not saying that the answer is to just give in to the demands of genocide supporters. I’m saying that it’s hard to imagine a workable solution and simply evicting and heavily taxing a whole bunch of people is going to lead to resentment.
I agree it is not simple in execution, but it is simple in the basis of it. Of course that requires external forces to enforce the law against anyone who chooses to fight it.
Ways to mitigate things could be a “Dezionification” process that teaches Israelis about their crimes. However you are right it will probably not go without using violence to enforce the law against Israeli criminals.
I’m sure the Israelis expelled from other countries where land was stolen from them will be pleased to hear this.
So Palestinians must pay for the crimes of others?
I think that’s about the polar opposite of where we’re going with this.
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Of course. People who had their land stolen from them should have it restituted to them no matter their ethnicity or citizenship.
I’m sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite
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Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won’t feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine… Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren’t any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it’s easy to blame Israel for everything there’s no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don’t like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won’t hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as “good guys” and “bad guys” and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran’s government. There obviously isn’t going to much of chance for peace if there’s a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn’t in Iran’s interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so…
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it’s been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran’s proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So… once again bad leaders.
So yeah… we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That’s hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
I have never, ever heard of someone calling for the deportation of Israelis. I think anyone who wants that was probably anti-semitic already and has taken the objectively horrific actions of the IDF as a reason to hate Jewish people in general.
Unfortunately, the term “antisemitic” no longer has any kind of fixed meaning. I wish that weren’t true, and I think it’s a combination of forces that decided to misuse the word for several decades, that have now led to it being meaningless.
And you might be tempted to tell me what you think it means, and maybe I could agree with you, but when I turn on the TV tomorrow someone else will be using it in a totally different way that’s inconsistent. Actually I’m kidding. I don’t have a TV.
Words that people misuse are still meaningful when the reader and writer both understand the same meaning. I expect you understand OP perfectly well.
Words that people misuse for the sake of propaganda are intentionally misleading, regardless of how any in-group understands it.
Your use of the word “intentionally” is quite confusing to me. Intentionally misleading on whose part? The word’s part, or the in-group’s?
Israel is the most anti-Jewish state since Nazi Germany, and Palestinians are semitic.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years, backed by seemingly the majority of the political landscape and the population. Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
fuck zionists, but they aren’t evil because they are Jewish, they are evil because their are zionists.
that’s like saying fuck white people because there majority of Israelis are white.
and so many loud antizionist voices are Jewish.
if you conflate the two (what Israel wants) you just feed into the Israeli narrative that we all hate the jews and they can only be safe in apartheid genocidal Israel.
which is BS.
literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Either you don’t know what happened during the Holocaust, or you don’t know what happens to Palestinians. These are in not the same, very far from it.
This is Holocaust relativism, bordering on denial.
That said. Palestinians are oppressed and deserve better. Your antisemitic incitement does not help them.
Interesting, what term would you use to describe what has been happening in Palestine and specifically since the last 21 months?
specifically since the last 21 months
This war was triggered by a horrific and unprecedented attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. A very destructive war in a dense urban setting against an extremely deeply entrenched fanatic enemy hiding among civilians.
There have also been war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.
If you compare the physical destruction of buildings with the number of killed Palestinians, it becomes pretty obvious that killing the people is not a priority war goal.
There is pretty horrific rhetoric during war times, which has enabled war crimes.
Any other government would have surrendered long ago. Hamas refuses to do so, despite the immense military superiority of the IDF, regardless of the destruction and loss of life it costs.
Your nonsense reply tells me everything I need to know. Thanks for playing.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Palestine’s population has increased every single one of those 70+ years including the years after the October 7 attacks.
And? What’s your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?
The point is that it isn’t a Holocaust and that such a lose use of the word is dangerous
Oh sorry, I forgot. Such serious terms can only be used when white people are in danger. Silly me.
Nobody takes you seriously when you max out on the hyperbole.
And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
Interesting, what term would you use for what’s been happening in Palestine?
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And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
Smokescreen for their support of genociding Israelis.
You fucking sound like an Uyghur genocide apologist ghoul.
I’m definitely not. Israel isn’t sterilizing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians like we see happening to the Uyghurs.
Actually, technically, officially
“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).
The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.
It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).
Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.
Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)
Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.
Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.
This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.
You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.
These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.
They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
It’s not fair.
If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.
In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
Are you not aware that Iran supports Hamas? Are you pretending October 7 didn’t happen?
I think you’re being very selective in your reading of history.
Iran is trying to put an end to Israel through violence and colonialism. They support violent oppressive factions throughout the middle east.
There have been land for peace deals negotiated in the past, there’s a willingness in Israel to make peace. But Iran gives support to violent factions like Hamas. Hamas has oppressively ruled over Gaza for over a decade and a half with the support of Iran.
Iran also supports the violent Houthi faction in Yemen which rules over a large part of that country (including the capital). The civil war there has been over 300,000 dead. They supported Assad’s regime a brutally oppressive faction that took a civil war with over half a million dead before he was ousted from power.
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
I’m aware of all of that.
The Arab-Israeli civil war of 1948 (Arabs call it the Nakba) actually started because of the first rejection by the Arabs of a peaceful two state partition.
In the Palestinian mind, right from the start of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the British and the European Jews were seen as an invading force, and the formation of Israel was seen as the entrenchment of that invading force.
Prior to the Balfour Declaration and British backed migration of the European Jews, the Arabs outnumbered the Jews 10 to 1 in that region, and it was unofficially considered to be their lands. They saw the mass migration as an invasion and a threat to their sovereignty and culture, as peoples generally do.
Today only 44% of people living within the territory of Palestine are Arabs, and 52% are Jews.
Based on these numbers it would seem they were right to be afraid.
I think that pre-Israeli zionists literally used the slogan of “Arabs out!” might have contributed to early 20th century suspicions that zionism was a fundamentally invading and colonial ideology. But that’s just me.
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
The issue is that the genocide has been going on longer than Iran and Israel have been enemies. And even if it wasn’t older, Iran supporting shitty factions (which, funny enough, are also supported by Israel - Hamas being a Mossad catspaw from the start) does not justify Israeli genocide of Palestinians.
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Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
“I just want to advocate for genocide! What’s the harm in that, other than some hurt feelings!?”
Okay, Zionist.
Hmm that’s a dumb reply. Please try better.
Man, you’re the one complaining that it’s not acceptable to advocate for genociding people of the wrong ethnicity because Israel did it first. Not really sure I’d trust the opinion of someone who wants to imitate Israel on what’s dumb or not.
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
Also what do you mean with “the wrong ethnicity”?
I don’t want any innocent people to be harmed, no matter what religion or ethnicity. I do however think that the Palestinians at least deserve their land back that was stolen from them through relentless murder. Equally, hold those responsible accountable.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
He likes to equate decolonization to genocide, to him they are the same thing.
“Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!”
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!"
Lol, you are ridiculously hyperbolic and purposely conflating terms to the point where they don’t mean anything.
Once again you are ignoring the fact that Israel is the one who is dictating policy based on ethnicity. Meaning that it is they who makes it impossible to delineate the ethno from the state.
Would it be better if people just said Israeli nationals? Would it be ethnic cleansing if someone claimed Americans should be kicked out of tribal lands?
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Projecting much? You’re the one defending colonialism…
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Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
You’re complaining that I’m objecting to people who are advocating for literal genocide against Israel under the justification that advocating racist genocide is just ‘hurting Israeli feelings’ and thus harmless and should be asspatted instead. That’s literally your comment I responded to, genius.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
No. In the fucking title I even allude to a one-state solution, which would be to the horror of most fervent Israel supporters. Sorry that I think that genocide isn’t a Final Solution to the problem of Israel??
The meme itself is fine.
But shilling a one-state solution with it?
Not cool.
Wait, what’s not cool about a one-state solution?
I’m not opposed to a two-state solution, but generally a one-state solution is considered the more radical option, so I picked it to emphasize that I’m not asking anyone to be pro-Israel.
I don’t know what you thoght when typing up the post, but I do know what I understood when I read it.
A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution. There’s one state of Israel and no state of Palestine. And currently, Israel hasn’t show itself to be all too nice to the palestinians, what with the settling, apartheid and recently as transparent genocide as it gets.
What a one state solution will do is keep the current oppressive power structures. Meaning nothing will truly change. The Israeli press has shown itself to be very anti-Palestinian, and a lot of the population is indoctrinated to think Jews are entitled to settle the land at all costs towards the Palestinians.
There are a lot of examples on YouTube of ‘regular’ Israelis talking of it in the most gruesome and off-putting words imaginable. One might call it cognitive dissonance, but it’s pure indoctrination.
And breaking such indoctrination, cultivated potentialy since the dawn of the sigle state, takes both time and effort.
Effort which is most lukely to succeed were the Palestinians given their own, fully autonomus, UN-recognized and in all aspects equal state free from Israeli control of all types.
Why?
Because Israel has shown itself to be unworthy of having authority over Palestinians.
Systematic oppression needs an equally systematic way of undoing it. Any attepmts at molding the current power structures are unlikely to stop the mistreatment of Palestinians.
The current Israel was and continues to be a one-state solution. A failed solution, that lead to the current genocide. The only way in which such a solution would work is through radical changes to the power structures of the current State, or a new one altogether. One with new laws, a new government, artificially made to overrepresent Palestinians to try to undo the equally artificial, but ingrained in Israeli society opression of them.
Previous such solutions have had a very bad success rate. Such an artificial state is truly like a house of cards. A bad compromise. Neither side is happy for a long time - both feel entitled to more than they get.
So in my humble opinion, one could say that Israel has been given a chance to govern the Palestinians. What they ended up doing is commiting systematic opression a d as of late, a very transparent genocide against them.
If you ask me, any goodwill they’ve gotten to that end was rescinded as of late, and anything less than a two-state solution will be rewarding the perpetrators.
Obligatorily: I’m not saying that Israelis are all genocidal maniacs, or activelly commiting genocide. But the state, their state, is. And such a state cannot reasonably be expected to stop of its own accord or by a finger-wag from the UN. Since the figer-wagging has been done consistently for quite some time now, way before the recent escalations.
A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution.
Again, that’s not what “one-state solution” means. “One-state solution” necessarily implies, for one, that there is a current problem in need of a solution; it would be extremely strange to say “The solution to the problem is the status quo.”
When people say “One-state solution”, they generally mean a single state encompassing all of Palestine and Israel with equal rights.
So, there being one state isn’t a solution?
And how would you solve it?
By not changing the fact that there’s one state non-solution out there?
Of course there’s a problem. But you seem to imply as if the problem is brand-new and no solutions have been tried. Not doing anything (or in this case enough) is a solution. A bad one, for sure, but even not doing anything requires some action.
One state with equal rights will not happen. And how do I know that?
I’m acquainted with the history of the Middle East.
This isn’t the first conflict between Israel and Palestine by a long shot. Israel’s had plenty of ample opportunities to show some humanity, humility and respect for human rights. We all know very well how they answered that call.
As I see it, there are three hypotheitical possibilities (scenarios) with a one state “solution” (as if it’ll be anything new):
a) Nothing changes (obviously). Palestibians keep being opressed. The war and the genocide stops, but in essence, they stay opressed.
b) The Israeli government falls. Palestinians take over. The opressors become the oppressed. Again, nothing fundamentally changes, just the roles swap.
c) A magical “middle-way” coalition wins power. All current laws get rewritten. Palestinians get equal rights, and a way to reclaim lost land. Everyone is happy.
I hope you see how only one of these makes aby sense in the real world. One is impossible, and the other a fucking fairytale (read: equally as impossible).
A two-state solution lets Bibi do what he’s been doing (Fascism Lite), while stopping the genocide and giving Palestinians basic human rights.
Anything else isn’t a realistic solution (read: it’ll never work or quickly break down with the current simulation parameters).
Genocide is the Isreali one state solution.
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I would argue that a two-state solution is equally unlikely under the current circumstances.
But my overall point is not whether a one-state solution is viable, only that it is ideal, and I used it in the title to emphasize that I am not arguing against even people who want to completely dissolve the state of Israel as it exists now, but only against the idea that directly making statements that are antisemitic or in favor of ethnic cleansing is what I’m objecting to.
To paraphrase: I wouldn’t argue it’s a viable solution, merely that it’s the ideal one.
Wouldn’t the ideal solution also need to be viable, at the very least?
While I’m also not arguing against the people denying Israel’s right to exist, I am also not arguing for them either.
And about antisemitism: I’d like to think of myself as against all types of totalitarian control and oppression. I’m also very lucky to not have a personal stake in any armed conflict current or past, which I feel gives me relatively unclouded judgement. I’m also very much against genocide, as I view it as a specific form of oppression.
Now, whether or not I am an antisemite largely defends on how you define the word.
I’d like to think that i’m not. However, that assumes the “classic” definition of antisemitism - having something against the Jews by way of religion or ethnicity and discriminating because of that.
I have something (a lot, in fact) against oppression and genocide. If not supporting everything Israel says and does uncritically and without reservation then yes, I am antisemitic. I do not support Israel’s genocide.
Hovewer, I feel this “new” use of the term is only going to harm not only Israel’s interests, but all Jews (Jews themselves inherently, not merely “their interests”). Abusing the term to refer to any dissent from Israeli policy will only remove all “teeth” from the original meaning. Of course, I wouldn’t want that, but that’s what I not only feel will happen, but is already happening, and it’s not because of me.
As always, Israel doesn’t represent all Jews, nor do all Jews constitute Israel. Much less so if we look at Israeli leaders’ official stance and world outlook. Conflating the three is a grave mistake.
two state solution is never going to work.
Israel is already a one state solution, as it contols all the territory and if commited to apartheid and genocide.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
That’s what most people mean when they say one-state solution, though.
yhea, was agreeing.
i dream of returning there, once apartheid is destroyed
Inshallah.
One state with equal rights solution is the least popular among the people living there. Nobody there wants it.
Two states have a much better acceptance.
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Crazy idea, but maybe we should end our dependence on oil? Wars cost money and we fund those wars when we buy oil. We pretend to be upset when we see the suffering caused by war, but then vote for whoever we think will bring down the price of gas and then pretend we don’t understand why there’s war in an oil rich region of the world.
So fighting genocide with ethnic cleansing.
Albert Einstein is 100% correct. Read his letter to the NY Times.
Care to post it here?
i think it’s this:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm
To the Editors of the New York Times:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
I really don’t understand people who think a one state solution is possible anymore. I’m not sure if it ever was but certainly at this point it’s not viable.
Nothing is “viable” if you just extrapolate the present, except I guess genocide.
To take a step back, moral ambition and political courage are necessary. If Ireland could reach a Good Friday Agreement, if South Africa could overcome apartheid, so can Palestine/Israel.
A plurinational democratic state with equal rights for all, with a truth and reconciliation process, and with strong international support is the only way the middle east can ever reach peace.
And if we are putting on big boy pants and imagining a better world, why not envision the Mediterranean Union becoming a force for democratization and stabilization allowing the free movement of people throughout the region.
When realism is dystopian, fuck realism and pick utopia. Otherwise, why even live?
Yes but for as brutal as South Africa could be they weren’t in the throes of active genocide. The overwhelming majority of their people weren’t okay with the extermination of entire races. Or at least they didn’t say so out loud, proudly. Expecting them to live in harmony with the people whose blood they are braying for seems foolhardy to me. Expecting those whose children have been murdered in mass in front of them to just politely join hands with the people who celebrated the murder of their children with Glee seems again, foolhardy.
I’m not expecting harmony immediately, I’m advocating for a political project with outside pressure to get to it eventually. Israelis like to talk about deradicalization of the Palestinians, but Israeli society itself needs to be deradicalized.
There is nothing cosmically exceptional about this conflict compared to other conflicts. If Bosnia and Herzegovina can be a society for Bosniak, Serbs and Croats and if Rwanda can find reconciliation after a genocide, so can Palestinians and Israelis.
This: “Why Rwanda is held up as a model for reconciliation, 26 years after genocide” | CBC Radio https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/why-rwanda-is-held-up-as-a-model-for-reconciliation-26-years-after-genocide-1.5842139
If we can’t imagine this horizon and if we don’t have the courage to work for it, what are we even doing? If all we can imagine is death and hatred, we are creating a self fulfilling prophecy and precluding ever going beyond it. We need moral courage and ambition, that’s all I’m saying.
Israel is already a one state solution, it contols all the territory from the river to the sea, and commiting apartheid and genocide.
End apartheid and you have a single state where everyone is free.
One apartheid state is no viable.
I mean, the situation is so fucked that saying anything is ‘viable’ at this point is a pipe dream. But I mentioned a one-state solution to emphasize that I’m not asking anyone to be pro-Israel, or even ask that Israel, as a state, should be allowed to continue to exist. My opposition is to advocacy for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
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I may be naive but why wouldn’t a UN governed state not be in the best interest for all parties? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum_(Jerusalem)
The Mandate for Palestine was pretty much that and it utterly failed.
„UN governed state“ means occupation and foreign rule. What country wants to send soldiers and police to a country where both major populations will hate you.
Oh geeze, an United Nations governed state is an entirely different can of worms. Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
The only real influence Israel has on the UN is the US veto, though. The UN regularly castigates Israel for its horrors.
United Nation members regular castigate Israel for its Horrors. Official action from the organization as a whole is almost zero. Also the unlimited and overwhelming veto is a massive amount of influence. Enough so that it makes the rest of the UN virtually irrelevant. Also something tells me if for some reason the US change its mind the UK would happily step in and fulfill that role.
Official action from the organization as a whole is almost zero.
… because the UN has very little power as a whole.
Meaning it’d be very ineffective at governing a nation particularly one with extreme special interests and extreme ethnic tension.
My point is only that Israel does not have much influence over the UN.
So many people on the left for whom jew = Zionist = fascist Israeli. It plays right in the hand of all the actual right-wingers and fascists supporting Israel. Appalling and stupid.
Isn’t that the stance of Israel as well? They claim to be the representatives of all jewish people.
specifically the stance of Likud.
So lefties should align their position on the fascist government of Israel ? 🤔
That’s why literally nobody on the left does this. A common and reasonable refrain is that it’s anti-semitic to conflate judaism and zionism.
These imaginary jew=zionist leftists are just a lib fever dream. Zio delusions.
Anarchist here. Literally not a single days goes by without witnessing this in lefty spaces, online or IRL.
No. They should fight for equal rights between all people in Palestine, jewish, muslim, christians, and everything else. For repayment to the victims of the Nakba. For the prosecution of war criminals. So on and so forth.
Where are these phantom lefties that think of Jewish = Zionist. Stop making shit up.
Most reasonable people out there know that being Jewish =\ zionists. There are plenty of Jewish people out there that are against Israel. It’s the Israeli government that has tried their best to conflate the two in order to protect their own murderous regime.
Where are these phantom lefties that think of Jewish = Zionist. Stop making shit up.
You might be having in-group bias if you cannot see this happening.
They are literally everywhere, from prominent left wing politicians to ordinary people (I’m in Europe BTW). It’s literally splitting the left down the middle in many European countries.
I hold equal disdain for all Abrahamic Religions.
They are a plague.
Why limit your disdain to abrahamic religions?
How many wars do you hear the Zoroastrians committing?
Pastafarians too.
And weirdly enough Jehovah’s witnesses.Why have disdain for someone wanting to believe in a story? Lots of people do lots of worse lies to themselves.
How many wars do you hear the Zoroastrians committing?
Tbh I never heard of them at all.
Pastafarians too.
I feel like that’s more of a political group cosplaying as a religion for legal reasons and social commentary.
And weirdly enough Jehovah’s witnesses.
They are litterally christians.
Why have disdain for someone wanting to believe in a story? Lots of people do lots of worse lies to themselves.
I don’t have disdain for that. My problem with organized religion is that it gives an easy in for maipulators. And naturally defining an arbitrary dividion into an ‘in-group’ and non-believers leading to conflicts.
And (what the main point of my original comment was) this is not limited to abrahamic religions:
Once a fringe Indian ideology, Hindu nationalism is now mainstream (La times)
decades earlier, while Mahatma Gandhi preached Hindu-Muslim unity, the RSS advocated for transforming India — by force, if necessary — into a Hindu nation. (A former RSS worker would fire three bullets into Gandhi’s chest in 1948, killing him months after India gained independence.)
How Buddhist Nationalism Defines Myanmar’s Politics (The Yale review of international studies)
But one view that hardliners and pro-democracy monks share is that they consider Rohingya Muslims ‘outsiders’ and want them sent to detention centers and deported
I remember some kid in elementary school once said to me “I’m not racist because I hate all races equally!”
He thought he was super clever to come up with that.
Being well is not a type of disease
This is brain dead thinking that ignores attorcities committed by both secular and atheistic regimes such as:
Stalin and USSR Maoist China Colonial states (France as one example)
And it’s all bad. But I was raised in the Evangelical Church. I read the bibble cover to cover 4 times before I was 15. Was on track to become a preacher. It was the hypocrisy of the church and the people in it that made me into the merrily militant atheist I am today.
Go argue 20th century geopolitical body counts with some poli-sci major. We’re shitting on organized religion right now.
Ok… And? The meme is talking about antisemitism not anti-religiosity
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Fuck Israel, genocidal scum!
