China sells weapons, selling weapons is not imperialism inherently. It matters to whom weapons are sold, for what purposes and ends. Scandinavian countries largely sell weapons the same way the rest of the west does, in service of retaining imperialism (such as selling to Israel).
Regarding colonialism, it’s in many ways similar to imperialism as a stage of capitalism. They are often linked.
Here’s a map of China’s arms sales. I’m not sure why you keep asking for sources, as you don’t seem to read most of the ones I do link and you don’t seem to provide sources of your own, yet you feel plenty comfortable making claims.
I gave you the source, and I’m always interested in a good discussion. I just feel that this conversation has generally been a bit imbalanced, that’s all. It seems like you’re coming from this with a permanent skepticism that even light googling can help solve.
That is fair. I don’t have sources ready on me to provide on these topics, I’d have to look for them first. I guess when I’m not referring to sources/facts etc I am usually coming from less of a position of “demonstrating why X is true” and more of “this is what I know and I’m just trying to pull what information you have”, if that makes sense.
Regarding the point on queer rights I wanted to go over:
I listed some significant progress for queer rights earlier but it seems like you just glossed over them as being “just some legal benefits”, because discrimination still exists?
I’d like to ask you:
Is marriage equality insignificant to you?
Is protection against discrimination in work and housing insignificant to you?
Are hate crime protections insignificant to you?
Is the right to adopt insignificant?
Are these things not significant?
I view them as life-changing protections. Please don’t shrug them off as if they are nothing. These are massive, massive improvements in quality of life, and they deserve to be acknowledged as such.
I cannot see you as being truly concerned for queer populations if these things just evoke a “meh, whatever” from you.
The phenomenon that younger generations are more progressive is more-or-less universally applicable, it isnt unique to China. While it is true that discrimination sadly occurs everywhere, it is significantly lower in Scandinavia. Compare any of those countries on Equaldex.com to China and you can see an in-depth breakdown of just how far ahead they are.
Is significantly less discrimination a good thing to you? Or does it not matter because it’s not completely gone yet, and having more discrimination is thus preferable?
Furthermore, you said that socialist countries do better in queer rights than peer capitalist countries, when this is demonstrably false. Compare Thailand and Taiwan to China. Both perform better in terms of queer rights than China, but neither are socialist.
Incidentally I have actually read the prolewiki’s entry on queer rights in socialist countries. I have read everything they cover on queer issues. There is a glaringly unbalanced coverage of queer issues, with everything being clearly cherry-picked. Not a single one of the countries’ flaws or setbacks are mentioned, none of the lacking protections or rights are mentioned. It came off as very dishonest to me and was a big part of my reason to not engage with that wiki again. I have already seen these countries through a reliable source that documents queer rights that I prefer to use (equaldex).
It strikes me as strange that any real negative or lack in China/socialist countries will always be downplayed and glossed over at best and simply not covered at all at worst. I wonder if this is just a Marxist-Leninist tendency or if it is shared by all Communists.
I will grant that free GAC in the past was amazing, and Cuba. There’s nothing really to say wrt to queer rights in Cuba as it’s already ideal in that regard, but Cuba is very much the exception in currently socialist countries (not a single of the other countries today are anything like it in that regard).
I am not “pinkwashed”, I routinely criticize the west and imperialism myself. I criticize everything.
Though it’s weird, isn’t pinkwashing basically a subtype of brainwashing? I thought you didn’t believe in “brainwashing”, in favour of moral licensing, according to your guide.
For clarity, I’m pansexual myself. I view improvements in the queer struggle absolutely positively. The problems I took with your positions were as follows:
You overstated the gap between western countries and existing socialist states, understating problems with western countries and overstating problems with socialist countries
You tried to tie socialism to an erasure of queer rights, despite the fact that socialist countries have all gradually been improving in queer rights over time, especially compared to what was in place previously
I guess when I’m not referring to sources/facts etc I am usually coming from less of a position of “demonstrating why X is true” and more of “this is what I know and I’m just trying to pull what information you have”, if that makes sense.
The problem here is that you’re treating me not as a discussion partner, but as a search engine. It doesn’t come across as you trying to convince me, or come to a better understanding together through dialogue, it feels one-sided and imbalanced. I feel like this is why some topics end up going nowhere despite several comments passing by.
I view them as life-changing protections. Please don’t shrug them off as if they are nothing. These are massive, massive improvements in quality of life, and they deserve to be acknowledged as such.
I never brushed them off as though they were nothing, I highlighted that they aren’t as solid as you claim, and are far more recent. China is 1-2 decades behind the west when it comes to LGBTQIA+ rights, not several centuries or anything, yet you frame it as though China is getting worse over time and the west is getting better while the opposite is true.
Is significantly less discrimination a good thing to you? Or does it not matter because it’s not completely gone yet, and having more discrimination is thus preferable?
This is the kind of frankly bad-faith bullshit you’ve been stating that makes it abundantly clear from my perspective that you don’t seem to care at all about what I say, but instead are fishing for “gotchas.” I’ll bold this so it’s clear: Less discrimination is better, obviously. Overstating the gap between countries when it comes to social rights in order to push a narrative that this gap is due to failings on the part of the country lagging behind is illogical and ignores the reality of how social change comes to be, and undermines the ongoing efforts of queer activists in socialist countries.
In other words, you’re throwing queer advocates under the bus to give yourself an excuse to discredit their real achievements, both up until now and in the near future.
Furthermore, you said that socialist countries do better in queer rights than peer capitalist countries, when this is demonstrably false. Compare Thailand and Taiwan to China. Both perform better in terms of queer rights than China, but neither are socialist.
Cherry picking. Throughout the Soviet Union’s existence, it was ahead of the west when it comes to queer rights. Cuba is far ahead of their peers, and even far ahead of the west. China is ahead of their peers on average.
Incidentally I have actually read the prolewiki’s entry on queer rights in socialist countries. I have read everything they cover on queer issues. There is a glaringly unbalanced coverage of queer issues, with everything being clearly cherry-picked. Not a single one of the countries’ flaws or setbacks are mentioned, none of the lacking protections or rights are mentioned. It came off as very dishonest to me and was a big part of my reason to not engage with that wiki again. I have already seen these countries through a reliable source that documents queer rights that I prefer to use (equaldex).
What you’re doing is cherry picking, though. Prolewiki frames social progress as a process, not as a snapshot. In doing so, it’s documenting the progressive movements in socialist countries and what struggles they face, it doesn’t try to document a list of what’s presently there because history is not a set of disconnected snapshots but a process. Both are necessary, having a good view of existing conditions while analyzing trends, and Equaldex lacks that historical background analysis and analysis of trends. This is what you deliberately are choosing to ignore, and what I have pointed out this entire time.
It strikes me as strange that any real negative or lack in China/socialist countries will always be downplayed and glossed over at best and simply not covered at all at worst. I wonder if this is just a Marxist-Leninist tendency or if it is shared by all Communists.
The negatives are not downplayed or glossed-over, what you’re missing is contextual analysis and analysis of historical progression, which Prolewiki highlights. This is true of all communists, dialectical materialism overcame vulgar materialism and idealism and as such represents the basis of how we understand the world. Not as disconnected, isolated snapshots, but as ever-connected trends and processes.
I will grant that free GAC in the past was amazing, and Cuba. There’s nothing really to say wrt to queer rights in Cuba as it’s already ideal in that regard, but Cuba is very much the exception in currently socialist countries (not a single of the other countries today are anything like it in that regard).
Cuba is not an exception, and queer rights in Cuba are not perfect. In 100 years, we will look at Cuban queer rights presently as extremely backward and lacking. What Cuba is is progressive as it exists compared to itself in the past, and as compared to western countries which are seeing backslides. China is catching up to Cuba, and is more progressive socially than it was in the past. If trends continue, it will overtake the west in this respect sometime this century, probably closer to now than the turn of the century (and not just catch up to where the west is today, but surpass where the west will be in the future).
You’re looking at the values you have today as though these were correct ideas all along, and we had to wait until right this moment to discover them. This is false. In 100 years, both of our views will likely be seen as progressive for our time and conditions, but reactionary as compared to standards of the future. This doesn’t happen evenly across a global standard, but also has national variance as well as development proceeds at different rates, allowing for greater or lesser pressure from queer liberation struggles.
I am not “pinkwashed”, I routinely criticize the west and imperialism myself. I criticize everything.
You were downplaying Scandinavian imperialism just a few comments ago, and you said Cuba is “perfect” with regards to queer rights. Cuba is not perfect, though it’s absolutely a great standard for contemporary conditions. Perfection is far away and perhaps impossible, what’s important is that we continue to progress, not regress.
Though it’s weird, isn’t pinkwashing basically a subtype of brainwashing? I thought you didn’t believe in “brainwashing”, in favour of moral licensing, according to your guide.
Pinkwashing isn’t brainwashing, it’s a form of licensing. Ie, Zionists telling queer people that it’s hypocritical to support Hamas and Palestinian liberation over Israel due to Israel’s “better queer rights” (which is honestly up for debate given how they treat queer Palestinians, ie with genocide).
I was certainly harsh this comment, but I really need you to understand the problem with how you view social progress as a snapshot and not as an ongoing process. If you want to read more about queer activism as it relates to anti-imperialism and socialism, read Lavender & Red by Leslie Feinberg.
I want to flip this conversation around. What is the underlying reason why queer rights are where they are in the west, and why are they where they are in socialist countries right this second? What direction is social progress moving in in both sets, positive or negative?
China sells weapons, selling weapons is not imperialism inherently. It matters to whom weapons are sold, for what purposes and ends. Scandinavian countries largely sell weapons the same way the rest of the west does, in service of retaining imperialism (such as selling to Israel).
Regarding colonialism, it’s in many ways similar to imperialism as a stage of capitalism. They are often linked.
China doesn’t sell weapons to the US and Israel?
China trades with them, but actually blocks the sale of weapons and things that can be used in weapons for countries like the US and Israel.
got a source on that?
Here’s a map of China’s arms sales. I’m not sure why you keep asking for sources, as you don’t seem to read most of the ones I do link and you don’t seem to provide sources of your own, yet you feel plenty comfortable making claims.
You don’t have to if you don’t want to.
I can move to the other point I wanted to go over if you’re still interested.
I gave you the source, and I’m always interested in a good discussion. I just feel that this conversation has generally been a bit imbalanced, that’s all. It seems like you’re coming from this with a permanent skepticism that even light googling can help solve.
That is fair. I don’t have sources ready on me to provide on these topics, I’d have to look for them first. I guess when I’m not referring to sources/facts etc I am usually coming from less of a position of “demonstrating why X is true” and more of “this is what I know and I’m just trying to pull what information you have”, if that makes sense.
Regarding the point on queer rights I wanted to go over:
I listed some significant progress for queer rights earlier but it seems like you just glossed over them as being “just some legal benefits”, because discrimination still exists?
I’d like to ask you:
Are these things not significant?
I view them as life-changing protections. Please don’t shrug them off as if they are nothing. These are massive, massive improvements in quality of life, and they deserve to be acknowledged as such.
I cannot see you as being truly concerned for queer populations if these things just evoke a “meh, whatever” from you.
The phenomenon that younger generations are more progressive is more-or-less universally applicable, it isnt unique to China. While it is true that discrimination sadly occurs everywhere, it is significantly lower in Scandinavia. Compare any of those countries on Equaldex.com to China and you can see an in-depth breakdown of just how far ahead they are.
Is significantly less discrimination a good thing to you? Or does it not matter because it’s not completely gone yet, and having more discrimination is thus preferable?
Furthermore, you said that socialist countries do better in queer rights than peer capitalist countries, when this is demonstrably false. Compare Thailand and Taiwan to China. Both perform better in terms of queer rights than China, but neither are socialist.
Incidentally I have actually read the prolewiki’s entry on queer rights in socialist countries. I have read everything they cover on queer issues. There is a glaringly unbalanced coverage of queer issues, with everything being clearly cherry-picked. Not a single one of the countries’ flaws or setbacks are mentioned, none of the lacking protections or rights are mentioned. It came off as very dishonest to me and was a big part of my reason to not engage with that wiki again. I have already seen these countries through a reliable source that documents queer rights that I prefer to use (equaldex).
It strikes me as strange that any real negative or lack in China/socialist countries will always be downplayed and glossed over at best and simply not covered at all at worst. I wonder if this is just a Marxist-Leninist tendency or if it is shared by all Communists.
I will grant that free GAC in the past was amazing, and Cuba. There’s nothing really to say wrt to queer rights in Cuba as it’s already ideal in that regard, but Cuba is very much the exception in currently socialist countries (not a single of the other countries today are anything like it in that regard).
I am not “pinkwashed”, I routinely criticize the west and imperialism myself. I criticize everything.
Though it’s weird, isn’t pinkwashing basically a subtype of brainwashing? I thought you didn’t believe in “brainwashing”, in favour of moral licensing, according to your guide.
For clarity, I’m pansexual myself. I view improvements in the queer struggle absolutely positively. The problems I took with your positions were as follows:
You overstated the gap between western countries and existing socialist states, understating problems with western countries and overstating problems with socialist countries
You tried to tie socialism to an erasure of queer rights, despite the fact that socialist countries have all gradually been improving in queer rights over time, especially compared to what was in place previously
The problem here is that you’re treating me not as a discussion partner, but as a search engine. It doesn’t come across as you trying to convince me, or come to a better understanding together through dialogue, it feels one-sided and imbalanced. I feel like this is why some topics end up going nowhere despite several comments passing by.
I never brushed them off as though they were nothing, I highlighted that they aren’t as solid as you claim, and are far more recent. China is 1-2 decades behind the west when it comes to LGBTQIA+ rights, not several centuries or anything, yet you frame it as though China is getting worse over time and the west is getting better while the opposite is true.
This is the kind of frankly bad-faith bullshit you’ve been stating that makes it abundantly clear from my perspective that you don’t seem to care at all about what I say, but instead are fishing for “gotchas.” I’ll bold this so it’s clear: Less discrimination is better, obviously. Overstating the gap between countries when it comes to social rights in order to push a narrative that this gap is due to failings on the part of the country lagging behind is illogical and ignores the reality of how social change comes to be, and undermines the ongoing efforts of queer activists in socialist countries.
In other words, you’re throwing queer advocates under the bus to give yourself an excuse to discredit their real achievements, both up until now and in the near future.
Cherry picking. Throughout the Soviet Union’s existence, it was ahead of the west when it comes to queer rights. Cuba is far ahead of their peers, and even far ahead of the west. China is ahead of their peers on average.
What you’re doing is cherry picking, though. Prolewiki frames social progress as a process, not as a snapshot. In doing so, it’s documenting the progressive movements in socialist countries and what struggles they face, it doesn’t try to document a list of what’s presently there because history is not a set of disconnected snapshots but a process. Both are necessary, having a good view of existing conditions while analyzing trends, and Equaldex lacks that historical background analysis and analysis of trends. This is what you deliberately are choosing to ignore, and what I have pointed out this entire time.
The negatives are not downplayed or glossed-over, what you’re missing is contextual analysis and analysis of historical progression, which Prolewiki highlights. This is true of all communists, dialectical materialism overcame vulgar materialism and idealism and as such represents the basis of how we understand the world. Not as disconnected, isolated snapshots, but as ever-connected trends and processes.
Cuba is not an exception, and queer rights in Cuba are not perfect. In 100 years, we will look at Cuban queer rights presently as extremely backward and lacking. What Cuba is is progressive as it exists compared to itself in the past, and as compared to western countries which are seeing backslides. China is catching up to Cuba, and is more progressive socially than it was in the past. If trends continue, it will overtake the west in this respect sometime this century, probably closer to now than the turn of the century (and not just catch up to where the west is today, but surpass where the west will be in the future).
You’re looking at the values you have today as though these were correct ideas all along, and we had to wait until right this moment to discover them. This is false. In 100 years, both of our views will likely be seen as progressive for our time and conditions, but reactionary as compared to standards of the future. This doesn’t happen evenly across a global standard, but also has national variance as well as development proceeds at different rates, allowing for greater or lesser pressure from queer liberation struggles.
You were downplaying Scandinavian imperialism just a few comments ago, and you said Cuba is “perfect” with regards to queer rights. Cuba is not perfect, though it’s absolutely a great standard for contemporary conditions. Perfection is far away and perhaps impossible, what’s important is that we continue to progress, not regress.
Pinkwashing isn’t brainwashing, it’s a form of licensing. Ie, Zionists telling queer people that it’s hypocritical to support Hamas and Palestinian liberation over Israel due to Israel’s “better queer rights” (which is honestly up for debate given how they treat queer Palestinians, ie with genocide).
I was certainly harsh this comment, but I really need you to understand the problem with how you view social progress as a snapshot and not as an ongoing process. If you want to read more about queer activism as it relates to anti-imperialism and socialism, read Lavender & Red by Leslie Feinberg.
I want to flip this conversation around. What is the underlying reason why queer rights are where they are in the west, and why are they where they are in socialist countries right this second? What direction is social progress moving in in both sets, positive or negative?