See, this is another reason they’re calling you a fascist. You fundamentally believe that people need to be suppressed in order to make them compliant, because a hundred million+ would never willingly work together to build a better society! This is a fascist idea, that humans aren’t cooperative because human nature is opposed to it.
That’s not how I see things. I know my class enemies need to be suppressed and reeducated, maybe liquidated, but I believe that working people will enthusiastically support abolition of class society once they understand their own material class interests as workers. Workers, aware of their own interests and place in history, would never support the existence of a society where they are exploited for the comfort of a few. Workers, as the vast majority of every society, will get to dictate their future.
I’ll never convince you over the internet, though. I’m just a string of text on your screen, a random encounter in the posting RPG. An NPC. Nothing I could ever say will reach you.
But as things get worse, and they’re going to get worse, you’re going to start looking for alternatives. I don’t need to win this argument, history will do it for me.
Do you have the stomach to personally kill another human being in the pursuit of your goal?
Non-human animals are innocent. My class enemies are not. That’s all I’ll say on the matter.
animal slaughter is traumatizing to the humans forced to do it for a living. Workers who slaughter for a living have higher rates of depression, anxiety, alcoholism, addiction, violent crime, and suicide.
They actually demonstrate class antagonism. The wealthy, more specifically the bourgeoisie, are antagonistic to the interests of the working class. The suffering and pain they inflict on the workers that are forced to kill their meat is actually a reflection of their class antagonism. They have no empathy for the workers that suffer from their meat consumption, because their class status is predicated on exploiting workers.
know my class enemies need to be suppressed and reeducated, maybe liquidated, but I believe that working people will enthusiastically support abolition of class society once they understand their own material class interests as workers. Workers, aware of their own interests and place in history, would never support the existence of a society where they are exploited for the comfort of a few.
Non-human animals are innocent. My class enemies are not. That’s all I’ll say on the matter.
You expect the workers of society to liquidate your enemies even after listing off why slaughter is class antagonism, yet you will not answer whether or not you are willing to do this yourself. Outsourcing this while knowing it’s going to traumatize those who have to do it is just another form of class antagonism, the exploitation of soldiers. The price you pay isn’t cash but the luxury of a clean conscience and the avoidance of brutality.
You fundamentally believe that people need to be suppressed in order to make them compliant
I know my class enemies need to be suppressed
You’re not making a strong case for me to stop thinking others will use suppression to achieve their goals when you “know” that people “need to be suppressed” in order to become compliant.
Human nature is not opposed to cooperation, the success of our species is entirely due to our ability to cooperate. What human nature is opposed to is single-mindedness, especially when the order of magnitude increases. Our cooperatives are messy. Individualism, free-thinking, and self-expression are our identity. We are self-aware animals who recognize that each other human is as self-aware as we are, or at least have the capacity to recognize that they are.
I oppose you because you believe non-human animals are innocent, but chose to be vegan because their slaughter is traumatizing to the humans who have to slaughter them. Yet you are willing to abide the liquidation of humans for the advancement of your vision of humanity but will not answer whether you will take direct responsibility for doing so or pass that trauma on to others. I oppose you because I think your responses highlight how easy it is for people to toss around labels of enemies regardless of whether they are actually a class enemy or a philosophical one, and would empower a state to do your dirty work.
I don’t need to win this argument, history will do it for me.
History never won anything, the people that participated in the events of their time are the ones who won or lost, lived or died, suffered or prospered. Again, this is why I oppose you, the belief something or someone else will “do it for you”. You get the benefits of the labor of everyone who came before you and that of the those in your time who take action in the present.
But as things get worse, and they’re going to get worse, you’re going to start looking for alternatives.
Why do you think I’m here? I see what is going on in the world around me. All fascists are authoritarian, not all authoritarians are fascist. The vast majority of people who are MAGA, Zionists, Nazis, Soviets, North Koreans, and Chinese do not directly participate in the suppression or repression of their enemies (however they define them) and none of those regimes define their “enemies” exactly the same. The only commonality is that responsibility for the initial suppression and eventual maintenance of the state through repression is passed on to authority.
I see the alternative you’re offering to our current system and reject it because the world is not black and white, this way or that way. I’m all in for the suppression of the wealthy, the bigots who would subjugate others based off immutable traits, and the radically religious who would impose their morality rather than keep it personal guidance. That is my personal definition of what makes someone an “enemy”. I’m in if that means we have to slug it out with them in the ugliest way possible, and I’m in for establishing a society that builds safeguards to attempt to prevent those beliefs and values from seizing power again, even if I think that is going to be a perpetual struggle of humanity. However, I will not engage in the trauma and suffering on behalf of others who are physically and mentally capable of participating just so they can enjoy the moral high ground, then expect to dictate their view of society once the obstacle is removed.
I think what you are suggesting exploits the physical revolutionaries to set-up a state guided by philosophical revolutionaries, all under the pretense of benefitting humanity. It empowers philosophy over people, a state for the sake of a state. Without taking part in the suppression or repression I question whether you would recognize when the state you’ve helped create has replaced class enemy with enemy of the state, or even bother to question it. Why should you, you’re just reaping the rewards and blissful ignorance of the actions of others in your favor.
See, this is another reason they’re calling you a fascist. You fundamentally believe that people need to be suppressed in order to make them compliant, because a hundred million+ would never willingly work together to build a better society! This is a fascist idea, that humans aren’t cooperative because human nature is opposed to it.
That’s not how I see things. I know my class enemies need to be suppressed and reeducated, maybe liquidated, but I believe that working people will enthusiastically support abolition of class society once they understand their own material class interests as workers. Workers, aware of their own interests and place in history, would never support the existence of a society where they are exploited for the comfort of a few. Workers, as the vast majority of every society, will get to dictate their future.
I’ll never convince you over the internet, though. I’m just a string of text on your screen, a random encounter in the posting RPG. An NPC. Nothing I could ever say will reach you.
But as things get worse, and they’re going to get worse, you’re going to start looking for alternatives. I don’t need to win this argument, history will do it for me.
Non-human animals are innocent. My class enemies are not. That’s all I’ll say on the matter.
You expect the workers of society to liquidate your enemies even after listing off why slaughter is class antagonism, yet you will not answer whether or not you are willing to do this yourself. Outsourcing this while knowing it’s going to traumatize those who have to do it is just another form of class antagonism, the exploitation of soldiers. The price you pay isn’t cash but the luxury of a clean conscience and the avoidance of brutality.
You’re not making a strong case for me to stop thinking others will use suppression to achieve their goals when you “know” that people “need to be suppressed” in order to become compliant.
Human nature is not opposed to cooperation, the success of our species is entirely due to our ability to cooperate. What human nature is opposed to is single-mindedness, especially when the order of magnitude increases. Our cooperatives are messy. Individualism, free-thinking, and self-expression are our identity. We are self-aware animals who recognize that each other human is as self-aware as we are, or at least have the capacity to recognize that they are.
I oppose you because you believe non-human animals are innocent, but chose to be vegan because their slaughter is traumatizing to the humans who have to slaughter them. Yet you are willing to abide the liquidation of humans for the advancement of your vision of humanity but will not answer whether you will take direct responsibility for doing so or pass that trauma on to others. I oppose you because I think your responses highlight how easy it is for people to toss around labels of enemies regardless of whether they are actually a class enemy or a philosophical one, and would empower a state to do your dirty work.
History never won anything, the people that participated in the events of their time are the ones who won or lost, lived or died, suffered or prospered. Again, this is why I oppose you, the belief something or someone else will “do it for you”. You get the benefits of the labor of everyone who came before you and that of the those in your time who take action in the present.
Why do you think I’m here? I see what is going on in the world around me. All fascists are authoritarian, not all authoritarians are fascist. The vast majority of people who are MAGA, Zionists, Nazis, Soviets, North Koreans, and Chinese do not directly participate in the suppression or repression of their enemies (however they define them) and none of those regimes define their “enemies” exactly the same. The only commonality is that responsibility for the initial suppression and eventual maintenance of the state through repression is passed on to authority.
I see the alternative you’re offering to our current system and reject it because the world is not black and white, this way or that way. I’m all in for the suppression of the wealthy, the bigots who would subjugate others based off immutable traits, and the radically religious who would impose their morality rather than keep it personal guidance. That is my personal definition of what makes someone an “enemy”. I’m in if that means we have to slug it out with them in the ugliest way possible, and I’m in for establishing a society that builds safeguards to attempt to prevent those beliefs and values from seizing power again, even if I think that is going to be a perpetual struggle of humanity. However, I will not engage in the trauma and suffering on behalf of others who are physically and mentally capable of participating just so they can enjoy the moral high ground, then expect to dictate their view of society once the obstacle is removed.
I think what you are suggesting exploits the physical revolutionaries to set-up a state guided by philosophical revolutionaries, all under the pretense of benefitting humanity. It empowers philosophy over people, a state for the sake of a state. Without taking part in the suppression or repression I question whether you would recognize when the state you’ve helped create has replaced class enemy with enemy of the state, or even bother to question it. Why should you, you’re just reaping the rewards and blissful ignorance of the actions of others in your favor.